How long should the sex of a sold animal be guaranteed?

[DAND]

Dave is there a story behind this question?

As Keven stated, it was a BOI thread and a suggestion made by Clay in that thread. It was one of two threads of which I am finally here to add my two cents here and then off to see why the other hasn't gotten off the ground.

Melinda.... question I have is....at day 29 .... do you really want the animal back in your collection not knowing how it was taken care of?

This would be something that needs to be added to the seller's TOS (i.e. *If an animal is returned for any reason in a condition less then the condition received you will forfeit said animal and any monetary refund). It all goes hand in hand with the other thread about record keeping. Some animals (especially well kept / started animals) can take the month of some idiot not maintaining the animal you sold them. If you have records of the animal (pics, weights, etc...) and the animal(s) comes back with a 25% weight loss and lets say mites, a stipulation in the TOS should deter someone from doing so or at the very least cover the seller.

And since you mentioned it.... how do you know that it wasn't bred (if its obviously breeding age) while it was out. Lets say you sold it as a female... and it was a legit male. Lets also say this male was a co-dom morph BP. Whats to say they didnt put it with everything in their collection then sent it back to you Now they get their money back.... and they have a boat load of possible co-dom morph babies in the future.

Size and age aside, a number of animals have a certain time of the year when they breed so the above mentioned is even less likely to occur. Again to the record keeping, say the above does happen and you have kept records including e-mails and you then find said customer selling offspring that could have resulted in their in all effectiveness stealing your stud services the following year then in my opinion a BOI thread informing others would be warranted.

What if, upon receiving the snake, you find that you were correct? At that point, the snake is back in your possession, and the customer wants his/her money back.

At that point if I have no doubts that I was correct in the sex, I'd refund the cost of the snake because I have it back. I wouldn't refund either of the shipping charges though. I don't feel the seller should have to eat shipping charges due to the buyers mistake.
It's a situation I hope never happens, because the outcome I'd expect is for the buyer to insist he was correct and I was stiffing him on the shipping and it'd end up on the BOI.

Again, I believe good record keeping and documentation will work to help the seller in matters where problems arise. If you have documentation that can show that this animal is the animal you sold to this person and then this person tries to pull a fast one you will then have the means to defend yourself if it does make it to the BOI.

 

[deborahbroadus]

This would be something that needs to be added to the seller's TOS (i.e. *If an animal is returned for any reason in a condition less then the condition received you will forfeit said animal and any monetary refund). It all goes hand in hand with the other thread about record keeping. Some animals (especially well kept / started animals) can take the month of some idiot not maintaining the animal you sold them. If you have records of the animal (pics, weights, etc...) and the animal(s) comes back with a 25% weight loss and lets say mites, a stipulation in the TOS should deter someone from doing so or at the very least cover the seller.

All the bleeding hearts will probably come down HARD on the seller for keeping both the money and the animal regardless of the TOS, and it's still a lot of "ands, ifs, or buts in there that would need to be addressed...a simple rewrite of the TOS with a time limit will eliminate this situation from happening as they can't send it back.

Size and age aside, a number of animals have a certain time of the year when they breed so the above mentioned is even less likely to occur. Again to the record keeping, say the above does happen and you have kept records including e-mails and you then find said customer selling offspring that could have resulted in their in all effectiveness stealing your stud services the following year then in my opinion a BOI thread informing others would be warranted.

All this can be prevented by a simple wording of our TOS to frame a time limit with which we are comfortable.

Again, I believe good record keeping and documentation will work to help the seller in matters where problems arise. If you have documentation that can show that this animal is the animal you sold to this person and then this person tries to pull a fast one you will then have the means to defend yourself if it does make it to the BOI.

Even the IRS only suggests keeping paperwork around for at least 7 years. IMO, forever is a long time to be racking up records on animals that are no longer in our collection.

 

[Southern Wolf]

After what SnakeLadyK is going thru and now lost

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1124500&postcount=132

She was doing nothing Illegal and is still forced to get rid of her animals. Make you wonder if all the record keeping is gonna be worth it in the long run. I understand its to protect us as sellers.... but the way things are going... there wont be anything to sell

 

[Melinda]

At that point if I have no doubts that I was correct in the sex, I'd refund the cost of the snake because I have it back. I wouldn't refund either of the shipping charges though. I don't feel the seller should have to eat shipping charges due to the buyers mistake.
It's a situation I hope never happens, because the outcome I'd expect is for the buyer to insist he was correct and I was stiffing him on the shipping and it'd end up on the BOI.

 

[Focal]

I thought I had my mind made up when I entered this thread, but after some real good points I don't know what would be an acceptable time. Great topic!

 

[AbsoluteApril]

My TOS stipulates a 7 day sex guarantee. The truth is it would be a rare circumstance that I would adhere to that and not extend it, but it's there just for those rare circumstances.
That being said, I think a month is a reasonable enough time limit to place on sex guarantee.

I give 5 days in my TOS and then they can return the snake for a refund or I'll replace with correct sex if available.

I've purchased missexed snakes and never double-checked until months or years later. Lesson learned! One of the first boas I sold in 2003 was missexed, the guy let me know 3 years later. I offered something for the mistake but he said it wasn't neccessary because he should have double checked earlier and had just wanted me to be aware (nice guy! I sent him a free snake anyways).

If a seller offers a 'lifetime' guarantee is that seller only responsible for the original value of the missexed snake? What happens when value changes over time or value is different because of gender? Also, what about 'lost income' from babies that could not then be produced with said reptile and the income spent raising it up? Just trying to understand from those people that would offer this.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

bringing this thread back up due to question asked in the BOI

What I don't get is, if YOU the seller mis-sex an animal and sell it to your customer, why do you only allow them a certain time to catch YOUR mistake?

Repeating myself a bit from the post directly above but I'm lazy and don't feel like editing

I have it in my TOS a time frame to confirm sex for a few reasons - if babies are caught quick enough, I'll probably still have some of the correct sex to replace with. If it's not caught until years later then what? Do you as the seller owe the buyer for all the missed breeding opportunities? Missed babies?! The years of feeding, etc? Do you replace with an adult of the proper sex? what it none is available? refund original purchase price? What if value is has changed in that time? etc etc. Better to catch it as quickly as possible.

 

[Matt2979]

bringing this thread back up due to question asked in the BOI



Repeating myself a bit from the post directly above but I'm lazy and don't feel like editing

I have it in my TOS a time frame to confirm sex for a few reasons - if babies are caught quick enough, I'll probably still have some of the correct sex to replace with. If it's not caught until years later then what? Do you as the seller owe the buyer for all the missed breeding opportunities? Missed babies?! The years of feeding, etc? Do you replace with an adult of the proper sex? what it none is available? refund original purchase price? What if value is has changed in that time? etc etc. Better to catch it as quickly as possible.

I guess you've given me that much more to think about. I used to include in my TOS that I guaranteed sex for 7 days, but after listening to different opinions, I decided that sex will not change so there should not be (at least not that short of) a time-limit to catch my mistake.

This not being the BOI, I will not bring any names into this, but I sold several balls to a person last year. He contacted me with what I felt was relevant proof of a sexing mistake on my part. One of several girls was turned out to be a male. Even though this was a few months after he received them, I quickly took care of him by refunding her, and let him keep the male. I was embarrassed at my own mistake and fixed what I screwed up. I didn't see there being any other option.

Now, if it had been next year and my customer realized that "she" wasn't going to produce anything? Since I've really not thought this out quite that far, I'm going to have to take a minute to think that over. Good point.

 

[Fangthane]

..He contacted me with what I felt was relevant proof of a sexing mistake on my part..

Proof. How many hoops do you make someone jump through before taking steps to remedy the situation? Without getting into the elapsed time aspect, if a buyer emails you and says "hey, a breeder friend of mine sexed it and it turns out it's not a male like the ad said". Do you ask the buyer for pictures? If so, pictures of what exactly? Do you instantly assume that a buyer who comes to you with a sexing issue is trying to work some angle?

Or, oh, I don't know..maybe they send you a small close up picture that, at the very least, depicts the same species of snake you sold to them, with an everted hemipenis. Would that be enough for you? What exactly do you require as satisfactory proof?

I guess it's actual precedents that I'm most interested in. As opposed to theoretical answers. How have you handled these types of situations in the past?

 

[Matt2979]

Proof. How many hoops do you make someone jump through before taking steps to remedy the situation? Without getting into the elapsed time aspect, if a buyer emails you and says "hey, a breeder friend of mine sexed it and it turns out it's not a male like the ad said". Do you ask the buyer for pictures? If so, pictures of what exactly? Do you instantly assume that a buyer who comes to you with a sexing issue is trying to work some angle?

Or, oh, I don't know..maybe they send you a small close up picture that, at the very least, depicts the same species of snake you sold to them, with an everted hemipenis. Would that be enough for you? What exactly do you require as satisfactory proof?

I guess it's actual precedents that I'm most interested in. As opposed to theoretical answers. How have you handled these types of situations in the past?

Since you quoted part of my post, I'm assuming that you're asking me, specifically so I'll answer with my personal experiences. There have actually been 2 instances for me.

The first is the one that I referred to above. He is someone that I believe is MUCH more well know in our community and I took him at his word. In this particular case, that's what was relevant proof to me. Not only because he was well known, but also because of how our transaction went and how he approached me.

The 2nd time was with someone that I did business with 1 time, and for a pretty nice purchase--again with multiple animals. She could have easily been lying, too, but she offered proof (which I never made her follow thru on) and again, I felt comfortable that she was being sincere.

In fact, now that I think about it, I remember now that in neither case could I remember double-checking the sex right before boxing the animal. That's something that I always do...well, if I were perfect. My lack of double-checking myself gave me even less reason to doubt either party. Neither party waited more than 24 hours for their compensation.

 

[Fangthane]

Since you quoted part of my post, I'm assuming that you're asking me, specifically so I'll answer with my personal experiences. There have actually been 2 instances for me

I wasn't really aiming it at you, specifically. Just decided to use that little quote as a general preface to my post. But, thanks for your input. You addressed part of what's at the heart of my questions: The use of context clues vs. instant and (what I believe to be) irrational paranoia. Would the aforementioned small, close-up picture have satisified you if you had pursued her offer of proof, and that's what she provided?

 

[Matt2979]

I wasn't really aiming it at you, specifically. Just decided to use that little quote as a general preface to my post. But, thanks for your input. You addressed part of what's at the heart of my questions: The use of context clues vs. instant and (what I believe to be) irrational paranoia. Would the aforementioned small, close-up picture have satisified you if you had pursued her offer of proof, and that's what she provided?

Honestly, I don't know for sure how I would react in a situation that differs from what I actually experienced. I do know that if I felt I was being taken advantage of, I would have had the customer simply return the animal where a pic would not be needed. Should I prove to myself that I screwed up, the return shipping would be my loss, on top of the full refund.

 

[Fangthane]

Honestly, I don't know for sure how I would react in a situation that differs from what I actually experienced. I do know that if I felt I was being taken advantage of, I would have had the customer simply return the animal where a pic would not be needed. Should I prove to myself that I screwed up, the return shipping would be my loss, on top of the full refund.

Exactly what had entered into my own mind as to what a fairly simple and reasonable fix would be. And it didn't even take me a few weeks to come up with it. If it turned out that you actually had sexed the snake properly in the first place, I assume that the buyer would not only eat the return shipping cost, but you'd also subtract the initial shipping cost from their refund?

 

[FireStorm]

I honestly have somewhat mixed feelings on this. I see your point, but I hate the idea of a completely open ended guarantee. Lets say I sell a snake that is supposed to be female but turns out to be male. If the mistake is caught right away, it is an easy fix. I can either exchange it for a true female of the same age (which I am more likely to have if the mistake is caught quickly) or refund the money.

If its months or years (possible if its not sexed till its breedable), then what? Do I owe the buyer a breedable replacement? What if I don't have one? How much should I refund? Do I owe them for the clutches they should have produced?

If I order anything else online, there's a time limit on how long I have to return it. If I get the wrong item but don't realize it for six months I'm probably out of luck. Its not my fault I got the wrong item, but it is my fault I didn't check in a timely manner (within the guarantee).

 

[Matt2979]

I honestly have somewhat mixed feelings on this. I see your point, but I hate the idea of a completely open ended guarantee. Lets say I sell a snake that is supposed to be female but turns out to be male. If the mistake is caught right away, it is an easy fix. I can either exchange it for a true female of the same age (which I am more likely to have if the mistake is caught quickly) or refund the money.

If its months or years (possible if its not sexed till its breedable), then what? Do I owe the buyer a bedazzle replacement? What if I don't have one? How much should I refund? Do I owe them for the clutches they should have produced?

If I order anything else online, there's a time limit on how long I have to return it. If I get the wrong item but don't realize it for six months I'm probably out of luck. Its not my fault I got the wrong item, but it is my fault I didn't check in a timely manner (within the guarantee).

I definitely see your point. It is most definitely better for both parties to figure it out as early as possible. I have absolutely no argument against that statement. What I do not like is saying that my customer is SOL because they didn't catch my mistake early enough. What if they rechecked it as soon as they received it, but also got it wrong and don't realize it until after the seller's time-limit for discovery has run out. It was still the seller's mistake.

Now, I've been thinking about the question of what to do in the case of realizing it at time of breeding (over a year after the sell). While I don't think it's right to tell your customer, "Too bad, but you should have caught my mistake sooner", I do think that the buyer must take some of the responsibility by then. I'm thinking that a replacement animal from that year's clutch (or something comparable in current day's monetary value) would suffice. I know that I would not expect anyone to give me a cash refund if I discovered the wrong sex that long after the fact, BUT I would certainly hold a very negative feeling towards them if they told me, "Too bad, so sad"!!

 

[FireStorm]

I think something like "Every animal is guaranteed to be correctly sexed. If an animal is found to be missexed within (xx) days of purchase, it can be returned for a complete refund or exchanged for a replacement of the correct sex if available. After (xx) days, the animal may be returned for a credit towards a future purchase." would be fair. I'm just thinking out loud...I am in the process of writing a detailed TOS myself. I'm just not sure how many days to allow for a full refund. I'm thinking 14 days, though.

 

[Sariel]

So just a short weight in on this, Im normally comfortable in my lurking status, but I did have a recent experience with just this issue.
I sold a pastel as a female, that was sold to me as a female about a year and a half prior, I checked the animal twice myself and given that it had passed from a breeders hands to another breeders I didnt have much reason to question my findings. The animal probed pretty shallow, but it was difficult to get the animal to relax.
Three months after I sold the pastel I get an e-mail saying the pastel had locked with a proven female while tubs were being cleaned, since I sold the animal without any solid TOS I figured I needed to bite the bullet and buy it back, mistake in sexing was my fault no matter the time passed. The owner took about a month to get back to me, he apperantly had a very hard time sexing the animal as well, eventually he got a video of sperm plugs being released when he tried to pop it. We met in person as the sale was a local one and exchanged his purchase price in full for the animal which I put back into quarantine.
A week later the animal started frothing and went rapidly down hill till he passed.

In the future, because of this I will email -everyone- who buys from me a TOS includeing a limited time to return.

 

[IMAJACOBIAN]

I've got a curveball to throw at this discussion.

What If said animal was a Burm or other Lacey Act regulated animal that was legal to transport before the act and during the original sale, but no longer can do so because it's now in force. Not that it happened to me, but would be quite a curveball if my Hypo (Co-dominant) turned out to be female. That's why as a buyer I verified via probe. As a buyer I do take some responsibility to the verification of sexes. If I couldn't probe or didn't know how to sex an animal, It should be verified from a dependable source/person. Accidents happen, but sometimes a buyer should step up and take responsibility for it. I'm not saying a very short time to verify or a very long time. I myself give the animal some settle down time without any contact and then verify the sex within a few days(If it is a concern to me). The most important part of all this(in my opinion), is not the length of time in the sellers TOS, but how clear the TOS is disclosed. As long as both parties are agreeing to the terms, then handling a problem should be simple with the exception of some extreme circumstances. All people can do is be up front as possible to avoid these said scenarios. I like to make all deals in writing via email/text or the like, but then finalize it in person or on the phone for a personal touch. Seems like I have gotten positive responses from people in that regard because it protects exerybody. But in the end, sometimes it is best for the seller to eat the cost if it makes a happy buyer and the buyer may return as a customer.

Jacob

 

[Digby Rigby]

Then again if you are selling amphisbaenids it can go either way as they are hermaphrodites.

In the case of other reptiles however, sex is definitely one way or another. If one offers sex guarantee, in theory its a lifetime guarantee. However in actuality one must establish guidelines to make it enforceable. If it was sexed as a baby will it look the same as an adult? If not then how does one determine if it is the same animal if it is say grown to adulthood and was then found to be improperly sexed?

1. Define a standard to first verify that the supposed missexed animal is indeed the same animal that was sent missexed.

2. Either guarantee the sex of an animal or sell it as sex unknown. After all reptiles are not probably one sex or the other they ARE one sex or the other. I believe someone earlier in the thread said they charge a bit more for probable females. If they do and the animal turns out to be the opposite of what was proposed as probable they should then do a partial refund based on the percentage they charged vs. nonsexed.

3. Establish a time frame for the buyer to be able to make a claim of mistaken sexual identification. If people need sexed animals then they should be prepared to be able to confirm or refute the sex of the animal within a reasonable period of time.

 

[mindspike]

While the sex of an animal isn't going to change, regardless of whether the period is 2 weeks, 2 months, or 2 years,

Say that to a clown fish....