One year anniversary of the closing of the Board Of Inquiry

[WebSlave]

To Stop the scammers in the US and you’re not familiar with the person you’re buying from you should request that they send a shipment COD UPS and FedEx have that option! Other than that I would have everyone registered with Faunaclassifieds to provide proof of identity like drivers license to weed out scammers!

Ah, yes. "Proof of identiy". That sounds pretty easy, doesn't it? You would be astonished at how easy it is for suitably motivated individuals to fake anything and everything. Which means that staff here would have to become private investigators and forensic specialists to try to qualify said "proof" being offered. I've seen my share of likely photoshopped driver's licenses over the years, and heck have even gotten forged attorney "cease and desist" documents sent to me now and again. So I really don't have a whole lot of faith in such an activity.

Besides, who will I get to replace the moderators when the current ones tell me to go to Hell when I tell them that is now their new job? I sure as Hell am not going to spend all my time doing such a thing, and hard as it is to believe, the moderators DO have a life outside of this site.

Then what about the liability from the inferred guarantee that anyone buying and selling here has been properly vetted and serves as an implied warranty that the seller or buyer is exactly who the say they are? When that is proven wrong, and you get screwed, aren't you going to be pissed at ME because of it? And if you have pockets deep enough, you might even consider filing a lawsuit against me as a result. Thanks, but no thanks.

As I mentioned in an earlier post there ARE legal minefields in running a website of this nature. Likely any attorney worth his or her salt would consider me crazy if I said I was going to take on a responsibility such as that.

BTW, I am sorry if it appears I am extremely negative when replying to suggestions here. Truth of the matter is that I have spent a lot of time over the years constantly thinking about how best to run this site. And point of the matter is that I have been thinking for at least the past year about how closing the BOI was going to affect the site, and knew the current scammer problem was a near certainty that I would need to address eventually. So many ideas being presented now really are not new to me. So I find myself explaining why I have already rejected such ideas as I thought about what would it would take to implement them, as well as trying to foresee problems they may cause.

Of course, I can't think of everything, and maybe I sometimes read more into things than I should. But all in all, usually when I suggest a plan and am asking for input, I have already thought pretty deeply on the matter, and am really looking for better ideas that I might have overlooked, or hoping that someone else sees something in my suggested plan that I hadn't thought of. And quite honestly, all the while knowing that there is a better than 50 percent chance that any change I make will cause a ruckus one way or another with a number of members, or perhaps be mostly ignored and wasted time and effort. If such changes that I have done similarly in the past would have left physical scars, I would be an awful sight to behold, indeed.

Anyway, I am planning on sticking with my original idea of just allowing BOI style replies in the classified ads sections and running with that. I have asked my programmer to mod up an admin panel so I can control the thread locking function so as to limit that to paying members only. I just haven't decided what level I want that to be set at, so I want the flexibility to be able to change it IF needed and AS needed. Will a scammer be willing to pay just $25 to become a Contributing level member and able to lock their ads? Beats me. That might just be a negligible cost of doing business to them.

As mentioned in my earlier posts, ONLY replies to existing classified ads will be allowed to have BOI styling posts made within them. New threads such as "searching for info on JOE BLOW", etc. will not be allowed. But if Joe Blow posted a classified ad here, then yes, that will be acceptable then. The reason for this, as stated before, is because I am only interested in steps that will prevent, or at least reduce, the incidences of alleged scammers using THIS site. If someone has questions about someone on another site, I suggest you go to that site for your information. That is their problem, not mine. I am trying to initiate plans to help members on THIS site with the other members using THIS site, and no one and no where else. As for those buyers and sellers on other sites that people might have problems with, as someone who I am very fond of often says, "Not my monkey, not my circus."

As this gets fleshed out, I will comment more about the implementation and rule changes that will need to be adopted.

Thanks to all of you who have contributed ideas and suggestions.

 

[geckoejon]

I miss the BOI... I just had a personal experience of a scammer using my info from this site & trying to sell / scam someone. It didn’t work & I have proof. I posted proof trying to warn others & I get an infraction?! The scammer did not post an ad, but instead texted someone that was looking...

I in no way ever would hold a site accountable for my (or anyone else’s) scammed attempted purchase... if there is a known scammer, and proof, shouldn’t you be able to provide it to warn others though?

From a user perspective, that is very disheartening & not user friendly... I wouldn’t want the site to be held legally responsible, but there has to be a middle ground to report instances like that...

 

[WebSlave]

I miss the BOI... I just had a personal experience of a scammer using my info from this site & trying to sell / scam someone. It didn’t work & I have proof. I posted proof trying to warn others & I get an infraction?! The scammer did not post an ad, but instead texted someone that was looking...

I in no way ever would hold a site accountable for my (or anyone else’s) scammed attempted purchase... if there is a known scammer, and proof, shouldn’t you be able to provide it to warn others though?

From a user perspective, that is very disheartening & not user friendly... I wouldn’t want the site to be held legally responsible, but there has to be a middle ground to report instances like that...

What would you suggest as a solution?

 

[WebSlave]

FYI, the ability for classified ad authors to lock their ads via the Classifieds Control Panel has now been disabled. Authority for this function is now controlled solely through my admin panel, and as such I have restricted this thread locking (closing) function in the classifieds section to ONLY be available to Contributor level members and above.

The method those authorized member groups need to use now is via the regular thread controls within the drop down menu in the upper right hand corner of the thread stating Thread Tools with a drop down arrow. It is by using this function that the original author of a classified ad thread can Close the thread to all replies. Sorry, but this function is not available to regular registered members any longer.

Effective immediately, replies made to classified ads that are of a BOI style nature will be solely under the control of the original author of a classified ad thread. But that sole remedy will be to delete the ad in order to be able to delete the replies. An exception to this general rule will be in any case that it appears obvious that the poster of such replies is causing widespread abuse across various classified ads, and his or her intent is obviously of ill intent. Things such as hounding someone because the viewer does not like the price being offered or OUR OPINION of frivolous nitpicking will be looked at closely as possible abuse. This will be at the discretion of the moderators, and does not imply that any and all claims by the original author of such classified ads will result in any action by the staff here. Just because YOU may have an unhappy customer of yours hounding you about their dissatisfaction with YOU, is not cause for staff to act in your behalf. YOU have the power to do something about it, even though you may consider that power to being somewhat drastic. Regardless, that will be your responsibility and your ONLY recourse.

Accordingly with the above in mind, BOI style posts are ONLY going to be allowed when they are posted as REPLIES to existing classified ad threads that have been created by the target of such replies. Starting a new thread anywhere on this site, including within the classifieds section with the goal of referring to anyone as a "good guy" or a "bad guy" in any way, shape or form, is not allowed on this site and will result in an infraction and the thread being deleted. As I have mentioned before, this Board Of Inquiry style posting will only be acceptable as an internal function solely with the goal of helping to inhibit "bad actors" from advertising on this site. What happens elsewhere is no longer permitted to be aired here. If you make a deal on any other site or though any other function other than directly through the classified ads here, that is no longer any of this site's concern. Nor will this site be used to air any such incidents.

And as such, I strongly urge all advertisers to limit correspondence with potential buyers and sellers ONLY via the private messaging function of this site. This forces contacts to register on the site in order to contact you, and therefore gives the staff here some power over helping to keep "bad actors" that register using false ID information from being able to access YOU in order to try to snare you in fraudulent offers. But that is up to you. And YOU need to report such incidents. Staff will not be aware of it unless YOU make that effort. Of course, if you provide your phone number, email address, or whatever alternate contact method you choose, and someone contacts you and defrauds you in that manner, again, that is not any of our concern. That will be considered as taking place EXTERNALLY to this website.

In consideration of the above, the staff here will only have a single recourse of looking into any accused "bad actor" and determine if they have used false information to register an account on this site. You will need to provide evidence of such a claim. And if such registration info is determined to be false, the account accordingly will be banned or deleted. Sorry, but that is the sole remedy available to us as an official recourse.

This change in policy and method is all being designed to try to help YOU when you try to do business here, and otherwise engage with others with trades, or other exchanges of merchandise and money. If you fail to take the necessary steps to protect yourself in reasonable and suggested manners, then when you get scammed, you know who to look to for your failure to protect yourself. You and YOU alone. Scammers are out there, and they are looking for YOU to scam. We will try to help all we can to prevent that from happening, but ultimately YOU make the decision of who to do business with. YOU have to understand that no blocks or attempted protections will ever be completely foolproof. So plan accordingly.

Anyway, I may create an announcement stating the above to get more widespread attention from the membership that what would be expected by being only mentioned in this thread.

There may be some details I haven't worked out or thought of yet, so if there are questions or concerns, fire away. I will do my best to address them. Just please understand that the Board of Inquiry is gone and not coming back. So asking for it will be a waste of space here.

 

[WebSlave]

In reference to the above mentioned change in how classified ad threads are closed (locked) by Contributor level members and above, here is a little primer for those of you not familiar with the process.

First off, the Thread Tools menu is located above the upper right hand corner of the thread.

You need to click on that down facing arrow in order to see the actual menu selections.

Make sure the button for Close Thread is selected, then click on the Perform Action button.

That is it! The classified ad thread is now closed (locked) so no replies can be made to it, or in the case where there are already replies, no further replies can be made.

Now if you should decide to reopen your classified ad, for whatever reason, you simply select the same menu, but this time the option shows you the ability to OPEN the ad.

This time the button shows Open Thread, so verify that is the option selected, and then click on the Perform Action button.

Done! The classifieds ad thread has now been reopened.

Anyway, hope that helps.

 

[WebSlave]

BTW, interested parties can also lock (close) their classified ad thread during the creation of the ad instead of having to go back to edit the initial thread post as indicated in the above post.

While creating the classified ad thread, down in the section called Additional Options where you also go in order to manage attachments to add photos, there is a line at the bottom of that area where you can click the checkbox to close the ad immediately when you post it.

Just a FYI...

 

[allreptiles1966]

It was a year ago today that I closed down the BOI and I guess I am interested in feedback concerning how this impacted YOUR use, value of, and/or perception of this site.

This thread has been prompted from the number of BOI-style posts that have had to be deleted from this site, infractions that posters of said posts have incurred as a result of making such posts, and the number of emails, PMs, and comments elsewhere I have gotten concerning people asking about how they can alert other members about the predations of spammers using this site in an attempt to snare victims. MY concern is that this site could be moving in the direction of becoming an attractive haven for scammers because of the rules now in place concerning BOI style postings no longer being allowed anywhere on this site. Basically they can advertise free and clear of anyone calling them out in any manner. Honestly, I'm not sure if I am looking at a tip of an iceberg, or perhaps a molehill that I am too close to that because of my close proximity, looks like it is a mountain.

So I am soliciting feedback for opinions and observations. No, the BOI is not coming back. Nothing has changed concerning the reasons it was closed down. But is there some alternative way to keep the scammers from having their way with the unwary membership via another method? Would allowing warning-based replies to classified ads be worthwhile in this pursuit, or would it just be more headaches than it is worth? Not that I expect anything to be headache-free here, of course. But I am uncomfortable at the thought that this site could very well may have turned 180 degrees from being what was once considered a relatively safe place to do business for the membership.

So please provide some constructive input, if you can. If there is no, or very darn little, input of any kind, I will just have to assume that everything is just honky-dory here for most people and put this thought behind me, leaving well enough alone. Wouldn't be the first time that what I was thinking I was observing was not actually reality.

And please note that even though I am soliciting suggestions, not everything suggested will be practical or even possible. This is not suggesting it would be a bad idea, just that there are limits to what CAN be done here programmatically, as well as what I WANT here to be sitting on my shoulders as an implied responsibility. I am trying to help as best I can, but not looking for more work to do.

Thanks.

Worse damn thing you did Rich. I personally caught people on here trying to rip others off and that’s because of the boi. It was even a on here when it happened to my buddy Mike on here. I’ve bought a couple things on here and cannot post how the guy is a liar and a cheat! How to warn people? We have no outlet to warn others. Without that, it make it easier to rip people off! Why would you do this?

How about a star system like teachers give out. Star for quality. A star for shipping quality a star for whatever else that’s appropriate to let people know it’s ok to buy from this person.

I’m getting pointed for asking questions about feed and feeders I bought on here telling me it’s a boi style ad!! Come on, it’s a forum and should be able to ask questions. I didn’t use the sellers name!! No hints of it either. So how’s that a boi style anything. Is this how it’s really going? Attack me for asking question about being ripped off. IMO.
Something needs to improve! People are being taken advantage of by others since the way to combat that has been removed.

 

[marker1]

Worse damn thing you did Rich. I personally caught people on here trying to rip others off and that’s because of the boi. It was even a on here when it happened to my buddy Mike on here. I’ve bought a couple things on here and cannot post how the guy is a liar and a cheat! How to warn people? We have no outlet to warn others. Without that, it make it easier to rip people off! Why would you do this?

How about a star system like teachers give out. Star for quality. A star for shipping quality a star for whatever else that’s appropriate to let people know it’s ok to buy from this person.

I’m getting pointed for asking questions about feed and feeders I bought on here telling me it’s a boi style ad!! Come on, it’s a forum and should be able to ask questions. I didn’t use the sellers name!! No hints of it either. So how’s that a boi style anything. Is this how it’s really going? Attack me for asking question about being ripped off. IMO.
Something needs to improve! People are being taken advantage of by others since the way to combat that has been removed.

Yes there are a couple scammers on this site this very second with ads up. Its sad

 

[bcr229]

Yes there are a couple scammers on this site this very second with ads up. Its sad

You are free to report the ad and a mod will look at it.

Under the new rules you can also post responses to the ad if you have information that the ad is fraudulent. Bear in mind that other rules regarding posting insults, threats, profanity, etc. still apply.

 

[marker1]

You are free to report the ad and a mod will look at it.

Under the new rules you can also post responses to the ad if you have information that the ad is fraudulent. Bear in mind that other rules regarding posting insults, threats, profanity, etc. still apply.

And what about our proof screen shots of texts etc?

 

[WebSlave]

Worse damn thing you did Rich. I personally caught people on here trying to rip others off and that’s because of the boi. It was even a on here when it happened to my buddy Mike on here. I’ve bought a couple things on here and cannot post how the guy is a liar and a cheat! How to warn people? We have no outlet to warn others. Without that, it make it easier to rip people off! Why would you do this?

How about a star system like teachers give out. Star for quality. A star for shipping quality a star for whatever else that’s appropriate to let people know it’s ok to buy from this person.

I’m getting pointed for asking questions about feed and feeders I bought on here telling me it’s a boi style ad!! Come on, it’s a forum and should be able to ask questions. I didn’t use the sellers name!! No hints of it either. So how’s that a boi style anything. Is this how it’s really going? Attack me for asking question about being ripped off. IMO.
Something needs to improve! People are being taken advantage of by others since the way to combat that has been removed.

Yes there are a couple scammers on this site this very second with ads up. Its sad

What is it about this earlier thread that you did not understand?

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=680507

And what is it about the changes implemented recently and detailed later in this current thread that you do not understand?

And what about our proof screen shots of texts etc?

Explain please. I don't know what you are referring to.

 

[marker1]

What is it about this earlier thread that you did not understand?

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=680507

And what is it about the changes implemented recently and detailed later in this current thread that you do not understand?



Explain please. I don't know what you are referring to.

I was scammed issue was resolved but only after a senior manner helped me with some advice. 1 piece was to post the text conversation between me and scammer everywhere I could. I was wondering if that would be a violation and to include fauna in where that got posted.

Side note(advice): issue was resolved but not until the scammer KNEW this (among other things) was going to be the action taken. also always communicate through text/email. They will lie forget they lie tell another lie and you have black and white proof. NO PHONE CALLS does not provide evidence

 

[Gary O]

Hi Rich, Doing my once in awhile stop and bug you post.

I had this talk with a few people a while ago about why the BOI shut down. Some truly do not understand what goes on behind closed doors... Not really closed doors but how it affects your life.

We go back a ways. We both know no matter what you do someone will argue about it. I am just happy to see you well still. Talk soon my friend.

 

[bcr229]

I was scammed issue was resolved but only after a senior manner helped me with some advice. 1 piece was to post the text conversation between me and scammer everywhere I could. I was wondering if that would be a violation and to include fauna in where that got posted.

Under the new rules you may post feedback about a seller only under the seller's ads. You may not create new threads with seller feedback.

You can choose to provide proof, or not. Some posters will likely appreciate it if you do. Just bear in mind that sellers can delete their own ads which will also delete your responses.

 

[WebSlave]

I was scammed issue was resolved but only after a senior manner helped me with some advice. 1 piece was to post the text conversation between me and scammer everywhere I could. I was wondering if that would be a violation and to include fauna in where that got posted.

Side note(advice): issue was resolved but not until the scammer KNEW this (among other things) was going to be the action taken. also always communicate through text/email. They will lie forget they lie tell another lie and you have black and white proof. NO PHONE CALLS does not provide evidence

Under the new rules you may post feedback about a seller only under the seller's ads. You may not create new threads with seller feedback.

You can choose to provide proof, or not. Some posters will likely appreciate it if you do. Just bear in mind that sellers can delete their own ads which will also delete your responses.

The goal here is not to provide, as used to be the case via the Board of Inquiry, a place for members to be able to detail their experiences with other persons and call them out in public via a new, pointed and direct, thread ABOUT them. Instead the current situation is a hoped for method to provide disincentives for "bad guys" to no longer post classified advertising threads on this site because their ads will receive enough replies detailing their alleged wrong doing, and be a strong incentive for anyone reading such classified ads to decline to do business with that person. After such a person has to delete enough of their classified ads in order to bury the evidence being posted against them, it is hoped they will just decide to go elsewhere to try to do their business. In the case of this site, "out of sight, out of mind" will be the rule for us having to deal with such people. The Board of Inquiry used to be about trying to save this industry/hobby. Now my much more limited scope is merely to try to prevent, or reduce as much as is possible, such unsavory practices taking place HERE on this site. Everywhere and anywhere else is on their own to deal with such things themselves as best they can.

I hope this has been cleared up for everyone. If not, just tell me what has you still confused. Not liking this new plan and preferring the Board of Inquiry will be a moot point as I believe I have made it clear that the Board of Inquiry is GONE, and not returning. Just like a plant that isn't given water and sunlight will die, the herp industry/hobby let the BOI slip away.

 

[marker1]

"The Board of Inquiry used to be about trying to save this industry/hobby. Now my much more limited scope is merely to try to prevent, or reduce as much as is possible, such unsavory practices taking place HERE on this site. Everywhere and anywhere else is on their own to deal with such things themselves as best they can."

As it should be! Not that you need my support but Ill give it anyway. I think this is what most people wanted anyway.

 

[WebSlave]

"The Board of Inquiry used to be about trying to save this industry/hobby. Now my much more limited scope is merely to try to prevent, or reduce as much as is possible, such unsavory practices taking place HERE on this site. Everywhere and anywhere else is on their own to deal with such things themselves as best they can."

As it should be! Not that you need my support but Ill give it anyway. I think this is what most people wanted anyway.

Well, have the changes I made moved this site in the general direction of being worthy of support or not? Yes some people got incensed that they got infractions and had their posts removed when they violated the rules as they existed at that time. It has NEVER before been acceptable for members to derail classified ads here, so it really shouldn't have been any surprise to anyone to get infractions by attempting to do just that. Whether the author of the classified ad thread deserved it was immaterial. The fact that the BOI went away was also immaterial. Apparently people didn't see it that way. So I really needed to drive home the point that the Board of Inquiry going away didn't mean that people could continue posting the exact same content anywhere or everywhere else on this site. Otherwise, I would have been exposed to the same problems that existed when the Board of Inquiry was here. How dumb would that have been of me?

So the recent rule change is a compromise that I hope will be acceptable to most of the members here. There is a lot of potential that it will open up the doors to even more headaches and maybe cause a lot of collateral damage as a result of people just trying to cause trouble with legitimate sellers. So it is entirely possible such activity will get this latest change rescinded in a hurry if I see it causing more damage than it is correcting. I am asking the mods to watch it all closely, because honestly I spend most of my time trying to block scammers and spammers at the gate during registration, as well as fielding server level problems, and rarely spend my time reading classified ad threads.

But whatever the case may be, rules are necessary on this site. Those rules are necessarily enforced. If I find it necessary to eliminate or change ANY rules, I will do so whenever I feel it is prudent to do so. I don't expect everyone to like the site as it was, as it is now, nor after I will make any changes in the future. But I will just do whatever I have to do when I think it needs to be done and it is FEASIBLE to do.

 

[marker1]

Well, have the changes I made moved this site in the general direction of being worthy of support or not? Yes some people got incensed that they got infractions and had their posts removed when they violated the rules as they existed at that time. It has NEVER before been acceptable for members to derail classified ads here, so it really shouldn't have been any surprise to anyone to get infractions by attempting to do just that. Whether the author of the classified ad thread deserved it was immaterial. The fact that the BOI went away was also immaterial. Apparently people didn't see it that way. So I really needed to drive home the point that the Board of Inquiry going away didn't mean that people could continue posting the exact same content anywhere or everywhere else on this site. Otherwise, I would have been exposed to the same problems that existed when the Board of Inquiry was here. How dumb would that have been of me?

So the recent rule change is a compromise that I hope will be acceptable to most of the members here. There is a lot of potential that it will open up the doors to even more headaches and maybe cause a lot of collateral damage as a result of people just trying to cause trouble with legitimate sellers. So it is entirely possible such activity will get this latest change rescinded in a hurry if I see it causing more damage than it is correcting. I am asking the mods to watch it all closely, because honestly I spend most of my time trying to block scammers and spammers at the gate during registration, as well as fielding server level problems, and rarely spend my time reading classified ad threads.

But whatever the case may be, rules are necessary on this site. Those rules are necessarily enforced. If I find it necessary to eliminate or change ANY rules, I will do so whenever I feel it is prudent to do so. I don't expect everyone to like the site as it was, as it is now, nor after I will make any changes in the future. But I will just do whatever I have to do when I think it needs to be done and it is FEASIBLE to do.

Yes so long as this site does not block my means of recourse in the event I am scammed. Publicizing such an event is usually the ONLY way to have a chance at getting back stolen money. So if that avenue is not only blocked but then someone is then penalized for taking it. Its actually in my eyes aiding the scammer and not just refusing to take part in the issue.

 

[WebSlave]

Yes so long as this site does not block my means of recourse in the event I am scammed. Publicizing such an event is usually the ONLY way to have a chance at getting back stolen money. So if that avenue is not only blocked but then someone is then penalized for taking it. Its actually in my eyes aiding the scammer and not just refusing to take part in the issue.

Regardless of what you see in your eyes, the rules are the rules here. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your perspective, I guess.

Any such statements (your above mentioned "means of recourse") you make about someone else MUST be placed within a thread started by the person your post is referring to. You cannot just start a new thread anywhere on this site with something like "Watch out for Joe Blow!", or "Joe Blow screwed me over!", or anything even close to those examples.

So what happens if someone posts a classified ad, you buy from this person and get scammed, but that person has deleted their ad and does not have anything else current on the site. Well, sorry, but there is nothing you can do about that. I was reluctant to bring this loophole up, but it does exist and certainly somewhere, sometime, someone was going to either get caught in it, or else bring it up as a question.

Unfortunate, but it really would surprise the hell out of me if I ever saw anything go perfectly here.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

Yes so long as this site does not block my means of recourse in the event I am scammed. Publicizing such an event is usually the ONLY way to have a chance at getting back stolen money.

Um, actually, filing a PayPal claim is the typically only way to get back money one is defrauded out of. And it works, too, when the buyer is smart enough to document the transaction.