gregtp
New member
I think the checklist personally is a good idea that way it can minimize personal attacks not being able to add text
One year anniversary of the closing of the Board Of Inquiry
- Thread starter WebSlave
- Start date
I think the checklist personally is a good idea that way it can minimize personal attacks not being able to add text
Incorporating something like custom coding for checklists into post responses on an older UBB platform is likely to be $$$.
For the above example, IMO this type of response would be ok:
On Jan 1, 2020 I purchased a snake described as a healthy female sunglow boa from this seller. He shipped me a male common with free mites and a respiratory infection. The boa passed away after a week. Necropsy showed the snake had Nido. Seller refused to respond to requests for refund. Can email proof to anyone who wants it.
This would not be ok:
Avoid dealing with this <f-bomb> piece of <stuff> scammer because the <expletive> <expletive> shipped me a sick snake and then the <expletive> ghosted.
boamaster
New member
Whatever think is best
Thanks for Taking opinions
Thanks for Taking opinions
Probably not as big and sensitive of a nerve as the one in you that got plucked when you got an infraction.
You might want to confer with your attorney. There is absolutely no legal obligation on my part to do what you want of me. If there were, there would be NO selling on the internet at all if the website owners could be held liable for mistakes in judgment between buyers and sellers.
And I think you highly underestimate how "simple" such "simple security measures" would be. But honestly, I find this to be quite common from people who don't have a clue about running a site of this nature, programming webpages, nor how the internet works. Just trying to positively identify someone on the internet is by no means "simple" at all. I really hate to call anyone clueless about issues they are arguing about, preferring their own comments to make that self evident to everyone who DOES know about such things.
Sorry, but I believe your own solution is to go to some other site that operates in a manner that you find most compatible with the way you want your world to be. This one does not appear to meet your needs, apparently.
You know we still do have the Trader's Ratings System on this site for people to use.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/traderratings.php?u=13997
And before anyone wants to complain about it ONLY being available to Contributor level members and above, please review the following thread where this has already been addressed.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524288
And that wasn't the first time I ran a poll on the very same topic.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448995
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/traderratings.php?u=13997
And before anyone wants to complain about it ONLY being available to Contributor level members and above, please review the following thread where this has already been addressed.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524288
And that wasn't the first time I ran a poll on the very same topic.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448995
gregtp
New member
I just gave you my 2 cents but hey I digress it's not effecting my pocket I would contribute and I was going to right up until the first infraction after that I lost taste for even trying to contribute or even sponsor this site but hey you do you man that was my thoughts
gregtp
New member
You might want to confer with your attorney. There is absolutely no legal obligation on my part to do what you want of me. If there were, there would be NO selling on the internet at all if the website owners could be held liable for mistakes in judgment between buyers and sellers.
And I think you highly underestimate how "simple" such "simple security measures" would be. But honestly, I find this to be quite common from people who don't have a clue about running a site of this nature, programming webpages, nor how the internet works. Just trying to positively identify someone on the internet is by no means "simple" at all. I really hate to call anyone clueless about issues they are arguing about, preferring their own comments to make that self evident to everyone who DOES know about such things.
Sorry, but I believe your own solution is to go to some other site that operates in a manner that you find most compatible with the way you want your world to be. This one does not appear to meet your needs, apparently.
and re read my man I never said legally obligated to I just said it's what you "should" do I mean you want contributors but you do nothing about scamming lol surely you can't be serious but hey man im not gonna sit here and play pre school games you made it clear what you care for end of discussion quite frankly this has grown boring I actually thought you might do something but it's obvious your not so no point in continuing to discuss the matter you have a good night
I don't understand what you think Moderators could do here Gregory? We cannot vet and *prove* every single listing or person is legit. We do our best to weed out the obvious spammers but it is up to each person to decide who they are going to do business with.
The BOI was an invaluable tool in that regard and I am sad it is gone. Trader ratings do exist and serve a very similar purpose but it is limited to contributing members.
Infractions/warnings simply enforce the existing rules of the site (that have been around for a long time, BOI type posts were NEVER allowed in the classifieds). No one can see anyone else's infractions besides yourself and the admin/mod staff. Being reminded of following the rules made you lose a taste for this site?
The BOI was an invaluable tool in that regard and I am sad it is gone. Trader ratings do exist and serve a very similar purpose but it is limited to contributing members.
Infractions/warnings simply enforce the existing rules of the site (that have been around for a long time, BOI type posts were NEVER allowed in the classifieds). No one can see anyone else's infractions besides yourself and the admin/mod staff. Being reminded of following the rules made you lose a taste for this site?
This latest conversation does bring up an important point. There are some people who will provide no logic to what they are complaining about, as they just want to make noise, and as such we will have to figure out how best to deal with them. That sort of thing CAN impact legitimate sellers who are just having to deal with difficult customers who bought an inch but expected a yard. Or in some cases (such as above), paid for nothing and expected far more than they were due.
Our difficulty will be trying to deal with such issues without appearing to be biased towards one party over the other. We just can't put a black and white policy in effect that would imply "We will only allow posts that are outing "bad guys" and all unwarranted posts against anyone in the 'other category' will be removed." We can't become a jury nor judge in such matters. As we have seen here, some people have a belief that they have an absolute right to say what they want, when and where they want. And us telling them, "No, you don't," just puts us in the crosshairs. So where would that leave us? Probably with a lot of people complaining about all the nonsense taking place in discussions in the classifieds sections. Ads will be pushed downwards in the classifieds as heated discussions instead took over those areas, further pissing off legitimate advertisers and viewers.
Which is probably why this might all just be a bad idea from the start. There are just too many troubled people on the internet that cannot handle public access without displaying their troubled thoughts to everyone and anyone. They will only want to make noise that only makes sense to themselves. Maybe just continuing to not allow any such talk really is the best thing to do here. Making a change like I have suggested might actually make things worse. Even MUCH worse.
So this looks like a mark on the negative side of the scoreboard. I sure as heck don't want to
Our difficulty will be trying to deal with such issues without appearing to be biased towards one party over the other. We just can't put a black and white policy in effect that would imply "We will only allow posts that are outing "bad guys" and all unwarranted posts against anyone in the 'other category' will be removed." We can't become a jury nor judge in such matters. As we have seen here, some people have a belief that they have an absolute right to say what they want, when and where they want. And us telling them, "No, you don't," just puts us in the crosshairs. So where would that leave us? Probably with a lot of people complaining about all the nonsense taking place in discussions in the classifieds sections. Ads will be pushed downwards in the classifieds as heated discussions instead took over those areas, further pissing off legitimate advertisers and viewers.
Which is probably why this might all just be a bad idea from the start. There are just too many troubled people on the internet that cannot handle public access without displaying their troubled thoughts to everyone and anyone. They will only want to make noise that only makes sense to themselves. Maybe just continuing to not allow any such talk really is the best thing to do here. Making a change like I have suggested might actually make things worse. Even MUCH worse.
So this looks like a mark on the negative side of the scoreboard. I sure as heck don't want to
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I miss the BOI, and while understanding why you closed it, it does seem an unfortunate result that scammers can post animals with no way for people to post warnings.
Would it be possible to encourage use of the trader rating more by making all ads have a very visible tagline that says "Check Trader rating here" and points to the button?
Then to avoid having the trader rating become an alternative BOI, limit the amount of words that can be posted with each rating so that posters would only be able to say for example, "'I did not get animals as described", but not allowing any further comments to be added to that rating, so that it cannot become the type of slanderous back and forth that the BOI became?
Would it be possible to encourage use of the trader rating more by making all ads have a very visible tagline that says "Check Trader rating here" and points to the button?
Then to avoid having the trader rating become an alternative BOI, limit the amount of words that can be posted with each rating so that posters would only be able to say for example, "'I did not get animals as described", but not allowing any further comments to be added to that rating, so that it cannot become the type of slanderous back and forth that the BOI became?
Actually I think people are smart enough to see the difference between legitimate gripes versus someone who is simply a difficult customer or making noise over nothing. Also if it's happening here then that should be a heads-up to the seller to check other review sites or forums for similar activity.
I do think alerting others to scams both perceived in an ad, or happening in the course of a present or previous transaction, as beneficial protections and I hope there is a way to do that.
On the other side, I believe that a single badly handled transaction should not mark a buyer or seller for life especially if going forward there were no further complaints.
Or a single transaction gone bad that was actually the fault of the other party (e.g. 'Well no I didn't leave a deposit and we didn't have an agreement, but I was interested and you sold it off to someone else anyway'); so perhaps allowances should be made to allow others to add to the the review, but in the BOI that became a lengthy (and rowdy) process at times.
Also, I can see (much like happens on Amazon) fake bad reviews planted for the purpose of undercutting competition, and fake good reviews perhaps purchased ahead to time to falsely promote consumer trust in an unworthy seller. Maybe I should just shrug and say 'that's the world we live in', but I've seen some of the sellers here for decades with honorable transactions and it wouldn't feel right to see their reputations besmirched in the name of commerce.
On the other side, I believe that a single badly handled transaction should not mark a buyer or seller for life especially if going forward there were no further complaints.
Or a single transaction gone bad that was actually the fault of the other party (e.g. 'Well no I didn't leave a deposit and we didn't have an agreement, but I was interested and you sold it off to someone else anyway'); so perhaps allowances should be made to allow others to add to the the review, but in the BOI that became a lengthy (and rowdy) process at times.
Also, I can see (much like happens on Amazon) fake bad reviews planted for the purpose of undercutting competition, and fake good reviews perhaps purchased ahead to time to falsely promote consumer trust in an unworthy seller. Maybe I should just shrug and say 'that's the world we live in', but I've seen some of the sellers here for decades with honorable transactions and it wouldn't feel right to see their reputations besmirched in the name of commerce.
The comments line in the Trader's Ratings already has a limit of just 80 characters. But honestly, it would take a lot less for someone to post something inflammatory and defamatory. Heck, merely two words could likely suffice for that. Which if that becomes the case in the future, then I will have to have the comments line in the Trader's Ratings disabled completely.
As for putting some sort of "encouragement" in each ad, each member already has what I think is a very noticeable line indicating that member's Trader's Rating Score, which links to the page showing the details of that score. If there is one thing I have learned here, is that no matter how "viewing enhanced" I make a notice of some sort here, the greater majority of the people will somehow avoid seeing it.
I wish I shared your faith. Most people have sufficiently working brains around here, but I have seen far too many contradicting instances to think it is universal. The goal, I believe, is to simply provide members a method of alerting other members about someone that could be a "bad guy" who is currently advertising HERE and NOW. Yet allow such and alleged "bad guy" to delete the thread, and potentially come to the understanding that there are probably more fertile fields to be plowing. I really don't want long term, nor long drawn out discussions taking place in the classifieds sections. Nor ro I want the classifieds to become a library holding such discussions on into the future. "Bad guy" comes here to post a classified ad looking for victims. Members who have had bad dealings with said person post public alerts about said "bad guy". Bad guy deletes that ad, and perhaps others, gets frustrated, and leaves this site. End of discussion. End of problem.
Yep, those are notable concerns if we are talking about the Trader's Ratings. Which is the major reason I made it available only to Contributor level members and above. Having to spend any money just to post garbage about someone is likely a pretty strong deterrent against someone just wanting to cause trouble.
Another notable drawback of the Trader's Ratings is that any posted comments there will not be under the control of any of the members. So if someone posts something libelous, I really don't want staff here having to have any inferred responsibility concerning deciding if the comment can stay or must be removed. Neither the person whom the Trader's Rating is about, nor the person posting such potential libel, will be able to edit or delete such comments made. So, that would put us squarely back into BOI-Land. And as mentioned above, if that becomes a problem, the ability to post comments in Trader's Ratings will just have to end.
The worrisome part about all of the above is that "good guys" could have unwarranted attacks that could be nearly impossible to control without shutting everything down again concerning BOI style posts. Since we will not be judges and juries about such things, we cannot just made the determination that THIS claim is unwarranted and we should step in, but THAT claim is not so we just let the horse run. We WILL catch flak about that, no doubt at all in my mind. Which, of course, would just put us right back to where we are right now.
I wonder how many people thought that running their own site like this would be loads of fun?
Webslave I understand your position and nothing I am going to say is destructive only constructive. There are three leading sites, fauna, morphmarket, and kingsnake in third. i dont see near as many scammers on morph market as fauna and kingsnake due to their "Rating system" and "store policies" that even include health guarantees that the seller would not include on other two sites. I love fauna been on here on and off for over a decade.....But if someone is selling what Im looking for for even a little more expensive on morphmarket I am going through that platform. with that being said I am done going through kingsnake all togather. This is not an attack just replying to the post. So a free rating system including negative and positive reviews from verified buyers is going to be necessary I feel from this point on, just because that is what morph market offers.
MM vets sellers and recently has implemented seller policies, and sellers will get booted for failing to adhere to them. MM also does get involved with mediating buyer/seller disputes. KS and Fauna provide a platform for posting ads but they are both caveat emptor sites; buyers are expected to do their own due diligence.
Now that said, there are also several sellers on my "never every buy from" list on MM due to how they screwed people prior to MM's creation.
I hope that works out for them. "Bad guys" will lie to the directives of a website administrator just as easily as they do to prospective customers. By implication a website could be legally construed as being liable by inference for any damages a buyer or seller sustains by dealing through that medium. I hope they had their policies and statements thoroughly reviewed by their attorney as it is very easy to find yourself in the middle of a minefield by the statements and implied guarantees you offer.
I know JeffB has or had an attorney on staff a while back, and I have certainly conferred with my share of attorneys over this site through the years. So perhaps there are very good legal reasons why some sites are run the way they are. And others may be courting lawsuits that could bankrupt them just on attorney fees by neglecting such an important step in their public policies and procedures.
IMHO, of course.
I really liked the ability to ask others their experiences. I have generally had positive experiences with the purchases and sales I have made thru Fauna but I know there are crooks and scammers out there. If you can allow people to rate both customers and sellers that would be awesome. In our lawyer dominated society though I would be afraid you would open yourself to legal action. There must be some way to get the message out. What if you allow people to ask for experiences with different entities and have them talk directly. All you would be is the contact to have asker and commentor connect.
Interesting idea. Thinking about how to implement something like that, I guess a single post thread forum would be necessary. Simple topic line containing just the name of the person, member, or business of interest, with no embellishments. In the text of the one message allowed, the thread author could ask anyone having info about such person to contact them in private.
Positives:
- Would eliminate the chatter that took place in BOI threads.
- All conversations would be private, which would eliminate the lawsuit threat.
Negatives:
- Not sure how many people would follow the structure under which such a forum would be intended. So when people post something like "AVOID JOE BLOW! HE SCREWED ME OUT OF $500!" we would have to delete it and sure as heck, the person posting that would get pissed about having it deleted. And we would be right back where we are right now.
- Would not provide any incentive for "bad guys" to go elsewhere to look for victims.
That is just off the top of my head without spending a lot of time thinking about it deeper.
But it is a thought to be considered. Just not sure if it could be implemented.
