draggintails
New member
Update from U of F
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Posted 12/19/2024.
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I am still waiting on my developer to finish up on the Classifieds Control Panel so I can use it to encourage members into becoming paying members. Google Adsense has become a real burden on the viewing of this site, but honestly it is the ONLY source of income now that keeps it afloat. I tried offering disabling the ads being viewed by paying members, but apparently that is not enough incentive. Quite frankly, Google Adsense has dropped down to where it barely brings in enough daily to match even a single paid member per day. But it still gets the bills paid. But at what cost?
So even without the classifieds control panel being complete, I believe I am going to have to disable those Google ads completely and likely disable some options here that have been free since going to the new platform. Like classified ad bumping, member name changes, and anything else I can use to encourage this site to be supported by the members instead of the Google Adsense ads.
But there is risk involved. I will not pay out of pocket for very long during this last ditch experimental effort. If I find that the membership does not want to support this site with memberships, then I cannot support your being able to post your classified ads here for free. No, I am not intending to start charging for your posting ads here. I will just shut the site down and that will be it. I will be done with FaunaClassifieds. I certainly don't need this, and can live the rest of my life just fine without it. If I see that no one else really wants it to survive neither, then so be it. It goes away and you all can just go elsewhere to advertise your animals and merchandise.
Not sure when this will take place, and I don't intend to give any further warning concerning the disabling of the Google Adsense. Just as there probably won't be any warning if I decide to close down this site. You will just come here and there will be some sort of message that the site is gone, and you have a nice day.
I have been trying to make a go of this site for a very long time. And quite frankly, I am just tired of trying. I had hoped that enough people would be willing to help me help you all have a free outlet to offer your stuff for sale. But every year I see less and less people coming to this site, much less supporting it financially. That is fine. I tried. I retired the SerpenCo business about 14 years ago, so retiring out of this business completely is not that big if a step for me, nor will it be especially painful to do. When I was in Thailand, I did not check in here for three weeks. I didn't miss it even a little bit. So if you all want it to remain, it will be in your hands. I really don't care either way.
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Some people have indicated that finding the method to contribute is rather difficult. And I have to admit, that it is not all that obvious. So to help, here is a thread to help as a quide. How to become a contributing member of FaunaClassifieds.
And for the record, I will be shutting down the Google Adsense ads on January 1, 2025.
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Responding to email notices you receive.
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In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.
Adenovirus Document from University of Florida
- Thread starter draggintails
- Start date
Denisebme
Honesty is NOT optional
Does anyone else feel like crying?draggintails said:
whiskersmom
New member
I can't get it to open, is there any other way we could link it or post it? If not....what does it say????? PLease!!!!
CheriS
No furry helpless bunny
You need adobe acobat reader to see it
you can download it online
It says the same thing that about a dozen published papers already online and already mentioned on this sites in the past and the prior letter they released.
The only difference I can see is that they state most their tests they have ran are positive, but they do no state any numbers of test or numbers of breeders colonies that it is from or the time period which I would have liked to see. I saw someone say they thought 500 and I had thought last October it was under 200, so I do not now which or if they had a lot more test in 5 months. I really do think that this left unchecked for so many years allowed many ownwers and breeders dragons to become infected
you can download it online
It says the same thing that about a dozen published papers already online and already mentioned on this sites in the past and the prior letter they released.
The only difference I can see is that they state most their tests they have ran are positive, but they do no state any numbers of test or numbers of breeders colonies that it is from or the time period which I would have liked to see. I saw someone say they thought 500 and I had thought last October it was under 200, so I do not now which or if they had a lot more test in 5 months. I really do think that this left unchecked for so many years allowed many ownwers and breeders dragons to become infected
Denisebme
Honesty is NOT optional
CheriS said:
I've heard, and admittedly the information came from someone with connections to a large breeder better left unnamed, that they had tested 500, I don't know that for a fact. if it is only 500, then we definitely need to get more people testing because that simply isn't a big enough study.
It's frustrating to know now that the PCR testing has been available since 2003 because no one was doing it. If people had way back then, we'd would maybe be dealing with a whole different issue today. Sad, sad, sad.
I know, hindsight is 20/20 and all that, and we can't live with shoulda, coulda, woulda, but I'm just.. well, a bit depressed by this whole thing.
draggintails
New member
I asked a long time ago and he told me that they have been doing this test for years, I had asked that if they did the first few years testing on sick and dead only...no he said they did colony testing and they have been doing it ....this is the accumulation of several years testing and they have tested a lot of lizards, it is over 500 (I joke that I was the only one testing..that was toungue in cheek)..that was just a guess on someone's part and Brian did not give that person a number..what he said/meant was too few for the amount of dragons out there and you have to guess that there are a lot of dragons out there and even several thousand tests are waaaay too few, but they do give the big picture..these are colonies and individual animals from all over the country and the one I imported from Austria..that had no contact with US dragons.
I asked him straight out months ago if he thought all dragons were positive just some were not shedding virus on the date fecals were pulled and he was silent..like it was a thought going through the researchers minds before this and he said he didn't know, he came back with "most dragons are positive".
I had this information months ago which is why I have been so morbid and negative....... I betcha they are all pos and the negs just didn't shed virus in the fecal (only those with test results attached that say otherwise can debate this..if there are no test results attached to your argument please don't bother me)....the PCR results say this to us, the EM results say this to us and you have read the other forms of testing besides the PCR are not as accurate..even the necropsies are not as accurate as the PCR. So the breeders that are saying they think they all have/had this from way back......you can't argue with them (and I engaged into some loud argements with a few of them without any proof on my side..I believed this information that there were many negative colonies at first, I hung on to it..but I never saw one test or any proof, not ever, not one, 0, none,I have asked and asked to speak with these people or to just see one test......they dont exist, can't find them, testing just said they didnt test or if they did, they lied).....the testing methods from before 2003 PCR were not as accurate..that includes biopsies and there have not been many EM tests to date. So now the people I argued with (and it wasn't Rob or Vickie) are laughing at me because I have egg on my face.
So, the people with the negative colonies where are you? You need to tell us you exist and give us some hope because we can't find you in the testing figures or anywhere else.
I asked him straight out months ago if he thought all dragons were positive just some were not shedding virus on the date fecals were pulled and he was silent..like it was a thought going through the researchers minds before this and he said he didn't know, he came back with "most dragons are positive".
I had this information months ago which is why I have been so morbid and negative....... I betcha they are all pos and the negs just didn't shed virus in the fecal (only those with test results attached that say otherwise can debate this..if there are no test results attached to your argument please don't bother me)....the PCR results say this to us, the EM results say this to us and you have read the other forms of testing besides the PCR are not as accurate..even the necropsies are not as accurate as the PCR. So the breeders that are saying they think they all have/had this from way back......you can't argue with them (and I engaged into some loud argements with a few of them without any proof on my side..I believed this information that there were many negative colonies at first, I hung on to it..but I never saw one test or any proof, not ever, not one, 0, none,I have asked and asked to speak with these people or to just see one test......they dont exist, can't find them, testing just said they didnt test or if they did, they lied).....the testing methods from before 2003 PCR were not as accurate..that includes biopsies and there have not been many EM tests to date. So now the people I argued with (and it wasn't Rob or Vickie) are laughing at me because I have egg on my face.
So, the people with the negative colonies where are you? You need to tell us you exist and give us some hope because we can't find you in the testing figures or anywhere else.
jimsdragons
New member
hi draggintails i feel the same way you do on this hole isue.. all i hear are all positive dragons so just like i really want too see the negative ones but i really dont think any are out there.................... 
CheriS
No furry helpless bunny
Tammy, it is curious how you now say that all have this, when you stated you have ones that have tested negative and more than once. You also have positive ones, so are you saying you will not try to keep those negative testing ones negative?
I have necropsy reports that DID look for adenovirus and did not find any evidence of it in a bearded dragon, and not just in liver sections, but through the whole animal. I believed someone at the time that all dragons have this and found out that was not true and yes, spent $400 on one testing alone to try and find it.
How can you say all have this when Universities say they do have negative test and more than once. I know of dragons that have had multiple EM test and are still negative. It's a virus, not a body part, the animals has to contact it sometime from a positive one, it does not just magically happen
You state you imported from Austria and that one was positive, I state I imported from Germany and had negative ones. Englandish breeders state they have negatve ones. Australian ones state that adenovirus is not a problem there or been found much and I may be wonrg, but I understood they have to account for their dragons in captivity and when they die.
AND AGAIN, everyone seems to ignore the fact ALL doctors agree that there are mortalities attributed to positive ones.
No, I do not beleive that all are positive, no one but some breeders state that, the Doctors doing the testing sure do not. Saying we are a lab and do $60 testing and MANY of those are positive is not saying that all are positive. A few online that bought from the same breeders and have some that test positive do not state that cause they also get some negative tests and also the Doctors that do the testing state they are not saying there are not clear ones or can be clear ones and stated there was an obligation to tell people if you have positive ones.
Is it widespread in some lines, oh yes, I do believe it is ... NOW
Did I miss something?
I have necropsy reports that DID look for adenovirus and did not find any evidence of it in a bearded dragon, and not just in liver sections, but through the whole animal. I believed someone at the time that all dragons have this and found out that was not true and yes, spent $400 on one testing alone to try and find it.
How can you say all have this when Universities say they do have negative test and more than once. I know of dragons that have had multiple EM test and are still negative. It's a virus, not a body part, the animals has to contact it sometime from a positive one, it does not just magically happen
You state you imported from Austria and that one was positive, I state I imported from Germany and had negative ones. Englandish breeders state they have negatve ones. Australian ones state that adenovirus is not a problem there or been found much and I may be wonrg, but I understood they have to account for their dragons in captivity and when they die.
AND AGAIN, everyone seems to ignore the fact ALL doctors agree that there are mortalities attributed to positive ones.
No, I do not beleive that all are positive, no one but some breeders state that, the Doctors doing the testing sure do not. Saying we are a lab and do $60 testing and MANY of those are positive is not saying that all are positive. A few online that bought from the same breeders and have some that test positive do not state that cause they also get some negative tests and also the Doctors that do the testing state they are not saying there are not clear ones or can be clear ones and stated there was an obligation to tell people if you have positive ones.
Is it widespread in some lines, oh yes, I do believe it is ... NOW
Did I miss something?
CheriS
No furry helpless bunny
One more thing.. I would really like to know the YEARS they have been doing testing and not using liver biopsy or necropsy, because if that is true, then they lied to me several years ago and I do not beleive they did
The big question, and that has been my question for 5 years. What are we as an industry going to do to try and protect those that are negative and rebuild captive colonies that are as the Doctors state now and for years have said the same thing?
Business as usual? Business as usually but with notice and education to buyers, be they someone just looking for a pet or someone looking for furture breeders.... like a care sheet/info sheet?
What can we all come together with one plan that we ask breeders to adhere to? Give you Doctors statements with the care sheets? Make them available at shows? or are we back to sweep it under the table like 5 years ago?
The big question, and that has been my question for 5 years. What are we as an industry going to do to try and protect those that are negative and rebuild captive colonies that are as the Doctors state now and for years have said the same thing?
Business as usual? Business as usually but with notice and education to buyers, be they someone just looking for a pet or someone looking for furture breeders.... like a care sheet/info sheet?
What can we all come together with one plan that we ask breeders to adhere to? Give you Doctors statements with the care sheets? Make them available at shows? or are we back to sweep it under the table like 5 years ago?
draggintails
New member
"Tammy, it is curious how you now say that all have this, when you stated you have ones that have tested negative and more than once. You also have positive ones, so are you saying you will not try to keep those negative testing ones negative?
It is curious how you say "many, many colonies have tested negative"....yes??
I beleived everything you said even though you showed me no proof of this, I want to believe so badly...the problem is that I can not afford to listen to fiction and the difference is now I am asking for that proof..I did call FL and IL and they said no, no, and double no. If there are other labs that tested all these negative colonies...send me the info or concede that you have been mislead and mistaken if not send over the info and I can ask them for their stats...labs are happy to do this when asked.
Yes, I do have dragons still holding negative results, I don't know if they are truly negative, Brian can not guarantee them negative..I have asked him over and over. I have tested one baby I bought that was positive on PCR and he did test neg on EM.
Where are the multiple neg EM tests and which lab did these? I know what I can account for in that 63 neg status from IL...who do you know has completed two rounds of neg testing from there? Attachments need to accompany statements like this.......and no one is stealing documents..that was a smokescreen..catching someone stealing is very easy with a phone call to said lab.
I have destroyed animals that were coming back positive and all of my animals have separate cages now, even the females are housed separately..try to keep them negative? you bet. Are they really negative...I don't even know what that means, the vet doesn't either.
"What can we all come together with one plan that we ask breeders to adhere to? Give you Doctors statements with the care sheets? Make them available at shows? or are we back to sweep it under the table like 5 years ago?"
I don't know what is so different from 5yrs ago to now...you can't prove there were negative colonies 5yrs ago....FL has been testing them positive for 4 yrs now......I have asked you repeatedly to provide me proof of these negative coloies( I paid a big price in destroying positive animals and trying to do my part by breeding only negatives..but by God there are no negative animals out there to replace the ones I murdered...I wish I had known)..............you are still talking gobbeldygook to me about negative colonies
show me the money
and I need that info on the other 2 more accurate tests where do they do it and how do I order my kits.....I asked several days ago
I want to test my babies this way if there are more accurate tests than the PCR and stop wasting my money...........Florida has no idea what you are talking about, I have asked them because you will not forward me the information on these tests you speak of.
I know I have been argueing with you in that I think most or all have it that have been tested and you disagree, but the thing is ...I can back up my statement from the testeds and Florida says most have it...they do not have any clean colonies only a few negatives out of all those animals...I know what I can account for from Florida.......who else has negatives from FL?
"One more thing.. I would really like to know the YEARS they have been doing testing and not using liver biopsy or necropsy, because if that is true, then they lied to me several years ago and I do not beleive they did"
You don't need to ask...in the document they state they have been doing PCR for 4yrs now..that's years and they have accumulated enough in those 4yrs to give us some grave news.
It is curious how you say "many, many colonies have tested negative"....yes??
I beleived everything you said even though you showed me no proof of this, I want to believe so badly...the problem is that I can not afford to listen to fiction and the difference is now I am asking for that proof..I did call FL and IL and they said no, no, and double no. If there are other labs that tested all these negative colonies...send me the info or concede that you have been mislead and mistaken if not send over the info and I can ask them for their stats...labs are happy to do this when asked.
Yes, I do have dragons still holding negative results, I don't know if they are truly negative, Brian can not guarantee them negative..I have asked him over and over. I have tested one baby I bought that was positive on PCR and he did test neg on EM.
Where are the multiple neg EM tests and which lab did these? I know what I can account for in that 63 neg status from IL...who do you know has completed two rounds of neg testing from there? Attachments need to accompany statements like this.......and no one is stealing documents..that was a smokescreen..catching someone stealing is very easy with a phone call to said lab.
I have destroyed animals that were coming back positive and all of my animals have separate cages now, even the females are housed separately..try to keep them negative? you bet. Are they really negative...I don't even know what that means, the vet doesn't either.
"What can we all come together with one plan that we ask breeders to adhere to? Give you Doctors statements with the care sheets? Make them available at shows? or are we back to sweep it under the table like 5 years ago?"
I don't know what is so different from 5yrs ago to now...you can't prove there were negative colonies 5yrs ago....FL has been testing them positive for 4 yrs now......I have asked you repeatedly to provide me proof of these negative coloies( I paid a big price in destroying positive animals and trying to do my part by breeding only negatives..but by God there are no negative animals out there to replace the ones I murdered...I wish I had known)..............you are still talking gobbeldygook to me about negative colonies
show me the money
and I need that info on the other 2 more accurate tests where do they do it and how do I order my kits.....I asked several days ago
I want to test my babies this way if there are more accurate tests than the PCR and stop wasting my money...........Florida has no idea what you are talking about, I have asked them because you will not forward me the information on these tests you speak of.
I know I have been argueing with you in that I think most or all have it that have been tested and you disagree, but the thing is ...I can back up my statement from the testeds and Florida says most have it...they do not have any clean colonies only a few negatives out of all those animals...I know what I can account for from Florida.......who else has negatives from FL?
"One more thing.. I would really like to know the YEARS they have been doing testing and not using liver biopsy or necropsy, because if that is true, then they lied to me several years ago and I do not beleive they did"
You don't need to ask...in the document they state they have been doing PCR for 4yrs now..that's years and they have accumulated enough in those 4yrs to give us some grave news.
draggintails
New member
"and I need that info on the other 2 more accurate tests where do they do it and how do I order my kits.....I asked several days ago"
Oh, ok Cheri ...Sammy tells me that you were speaking of necropsy and liver biopsy. I honest to God could not tell from your post what you were talking about as we were discussing tests on live lizards..the liver biopsy..I don't even know anyone who submitted their lizards for this..it is scary.
I was going crazy because I couldn't find any other tests. Necropsy is out of the question for me and my vet would never do a liver biopsy when there is PCR..I would have to find another vet to do it.
Oh, ok Cheri ...Sammy tells me that you were speaking of necropsy and liver biopsy. I honest to God could not tell from your post what you were talking about as we were discussing tests on live lizards..the liver biopsy..I don't even know anyone who submitted their lizards for this..it is scary.
I was going crazy because I couldn't find any other tests. Necropsy is out of the question for me and my vet would never do a liver biopsy when there is PCR..I would have to find another vet to do it.
CheriS
No furry helpless bunny
ALL breeder even small ones lose babies, its a fact of breeding and hatching, it just happens sometimes....why is a necropsy out of the question?
If more breeders did submit babies or adults that do not survive for a necropsy with request specifically to check for adeno, I think it can give a tremendous amount of VALUABLE info and move us closer/faster to some answers. We could see those that actually are positive, PLUS if they are positive, we would learn the affects or LACK of affect of that virus in them, which would tell us what dragons are adversely affected and may help narrow down if there is more than one strain or other factors that can be a catalyst or co-cause of illness. How can that not be more valuable?
If anyone is telling you that those 2 are not accurate, that sure is news to a lot of us and I am sure to the labs that for years diagnosed it and the actually internal damage it was doing or if this was the cause of death/illness
Ashley Zehnder, DVM, UC Davis College of Veterinary Medicine
says
If more breeders did submit babies or adults that do not survive for a necropsy with request specifically to check for adeno, I think it can give a tremendous amount of VALUABLE info and move us closer/faster to some answers. We could see those that actually are positive, PLUS if they are positive, we would learn the affects or LACK of affect of that virus in them, which would tell us what dragons are adversely affected and may help narrow down if there is more than one strain or other factors that can be a catalyst or co-cause of illness. How can that not be more valuable?
If anyone is telling you that those 2 are not accurate, that sure is news to a lot of us and I am sure to the labs that for years diagnosed it and the actually internal damage it was doing or if this was the cause of death/illness
Ashley Zehnder, DVM, UC Davis College of Veterinary Medicine
says
CheriS.
Ive turned my fans on to blow the smoke away. What the heck are the "Two tests" you are talking about? Don't write anything but what the tests are and how they work.
Good Lord! Please let us know!.
Jim.
Ive turned my fans on to blow the smoke away. What the heck are the "Two tests" you are talking about? Don't write anything but what the tests are and how they work.
Good Lord! Please let us know!.
Jim.
The truth is regardless, they only tested a very few of the dragons out there in the U.S., I can not believe anyone is taking it that they say all of these dragons are positive based on the very few they have tested. How many dragons are in the U.S., verses the testing they have done? 1,000,000 or more IMO. Truth is, that is based on the very few they have tested.
I also would not look for many that have tested and got negative results to come forward, we know they would start being attacked just like what is happening above in this thread.
I also would not look for many that have tested and got negative results to come forward, we know they would start being attacked just like what is happening above in this thread.
shrap
Freelance Philosopher
JimD said:
Who are you to think you got the right to tell anyone what to say about anything? The reason no one treats you with any respect is because you dont treat anyone with respect yourself.
draggintails
New member
"ALL breeder even small ones lose babies, its a fact of breeding and hatching, it just happens sometimes....why is a necropsy out of the question?"
Dr. Stacey does say a necropsy is not as accurate as PCR for AV detection...he said this, I don't know why then..
He never discussed the liver biopsy with me, never brought it up as a testing method and he never brought up necropsy as a testing method for me.
I was talking about tests for our live lizards, the breeding stock ....they are the most important to test and their babies. Necropsy is out of the question for determining if a healthy lizard is AV pos.
I don't want to do a liver biopsy on them.....doc would kill me, bringing in a colony of dragons for liver biopsy......the cost for this would be super I bet...and I don't want to test these nice babies this way. Very unreasonable to do a biopsy and I don't know anyone who has even tested that I have seen the test paper this way..not one person.
I had thought you meant there were 2 more accurate tests for live healthy lizards...yes I do know we can do biopsy on live healthy lizard.
I hounded you because I was excited, I couldnt fathom it was these two tests you were suggesting to me...these are clearly unreasonable for testing my colony.
I am fascinated with who these people are that are taking in colonies for liver biopsy...whole colonies yeidling many, many negatives with their liver biopsies? A truck full of lizards going to the vet?
Dr. Stacey does say a necropsy is not as accurate as PCR for AV detection...he said this, I don't know why then..
He never discussed the liver biopsy with me, never brought it up as a testing method and he never brought up necropsy as a testing method for me.
I was talking about tests for our live lizards, the breeding stock ....they are the most important to test and their babies. Necropsy is out of the question for determining if a healthy lizard is AV pos.
I don't want to do a liver biopsy on them.....doc would kill me, bringing in a colony of dragons for liver biopsy......the cost for this would be super I bet...and I don't want to test these nice babies this way. Very unreasonable to do a biopsy and I don't know anyone who has even tested that I have seen the test paper this way..not one person.
I had thought you meant there were 2 more accurate tests for live healthy lizards...yes I do know we can do biopsy on live healthy lizard.
I hounded you because I was excited, I couldnt fathom it was these two tests you were suggesting to me...these are clearly unreasonable for testing my colony.
I am fascinated with who these people are that are taking in colonies for liver biopsy...whole colonies yeidling many, many negatives with their liver biopsies? A truck full of lizards going to the vet?
draggintails
New member
JimD,
It is liver biopsy and necropsy...relax, go have some coffee, some eggs and that good bacon you guys are so stingy with.
It is liver biopsy and necropsy...relax, go have some coffee, some eggs and that good bacon you guys are so stingy with.