Adenovirus Document from University of Florida

varnyard said:
I choose the truth, that what I support.


What is the truth, bobby ? You changed your stance and views so much thoughout. Tell us all, what is the truth.
 
mikey said:
What is the truth, bobby ? You changed your stance and views so much thoughout. Tell us all, what is the truth.

Nope, I only changed it once, that was after I found out the truth.

So Vickie, care to answer those questions? Or are you still going to let other stick their necks out for you?
 
varnyard So Vickie said:
Sorry Bobby, But unlike yourself, I have and always will state only my own opinions on AV. I didn't make calls and email everyone around the country like you did. I think for myself and state only my views, right or wrong, whether I agree or not with the majority or minority. I never FOOLISHLY stuck my neck out for anyone, unlike yourself, and never will here. I also questioned Denise on testing blood PCR and still wonder why/if she tested blood when no one else had. I think it was valid to dispute her choice of testing and still do.

I am also glad to see you are not a mod here any longer as I think your behavior has been well, I think Kelli H summed you up quite perfectly.

04-07-2007, 12:25 PM
KelliH
geckophile
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Pepperland
Age: 35
Posts: 3,204
Name : Kelli Hammack

Trader Rating: (51)


Warning Level: 0 Re: I'm still waiting

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's exactly as I suspected: It's perfectly A-Ok for Bobby Hill to make his opinions known and ask questions of others in a debate but when someone else believes differently and doesn't happen to agree with him, watch out! Don't you think that is a tad bit hypocritical of you, Bobby?

And I would like you to please explain how it is you think that I am turning a blind eye to the situation. I am participating in the discussion, just like you are! I just happen to have some differences in opinion with you, and then OF COURSE you bring up-

what happened nearly a year ago when GeckoForums.net was made public... Bobby, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the current situation, dude. That is in the past and Rich and I have resolved our problems with each other.

I think the truth of the matter is that you are upset that you were Vickie's and (Kevin Dunn's probably) TOOL. And you have reason to be upset, but acting the way you have been is only making you look worse.

Later,
Kelli
 
Jean, the proof is seen who is behind it all, give it a break.

Same people, same story.
 
mikey said:
Sorry Bobby, But unlike yourself, I have and always will state only my own opinions on AV. I didn't make calls and email everyone around the country like you did. I think for myself and state only my views, right or wrong, whether I agree or not with the majority or minority.

Jean, Bobby made those calls and emailed people to LEARN. If we don't talk to others and learn from their experiences, how will we ever learn?

Bobby made mistakes and manned up to them. He didn't know a lot about the virus, and did his best to learn what the truth is, and what was BS. That's more than a lot of folks have done, and he has put more effort into learning about it than even many folks who BREED dragons do...and he doesn't even raise them.
 
Hello

Hello,

I may not be a breeder, but am an owner of dragons. However, at THIS point now, what needs to be done is just raise awareness & TRY to fix some of the problems that are in the colonies.
IF there is no guideline then nothing will ever get started. It definitely isn't going to get fixed overnight. All of the arguing isn't going to fix it either. So what if every question isn't answered yet, but I am quite sure that they will be soon.
Yes, according to the UF document, some dragons exhibit no symptoms while others do & simply die. Why are some dragons' immune systems better than others? Survival of the Fittest I guess, but, we are not helping the species along with our haphazard acts. I wish I knew the answers to why some dragons' genetics were better than others, but I don't. The same thing goes for people, why do some people who smoke get lung cancer while some smoke their whole life & never get lung cancer? It makes no sense. The best thing I can come up with is genetics & predetermined vulnerability to disease due to weakened immune systems. We need to give the dragons the best chance for survival.
All most of us are asking is to please be responsible breeders. Just do the testing. I am quite aware how expensive it is, but, if no one does it because they think why bother everyone has it anyway, everyone definitely WILL have it. Even if a carrier exhibits no symptoms, they all of the sudden could die from something strange. Why do we want the future dragons to all be carriers, wouldn't we rather them be without the virus altogethr? Isn't that what this should be about anyway? Everyone says yeah they care about the dragons, but, actions speak so much louder than words ever will. Then just DO something.
Other countries that have Bearded Dragons aren't having these problems apparently. It is because we have overbred here & weren't careful when the problem first arose. Now, just start doing something about it.

Tracie
 
As a owner of two positive dragons, I agree with Ladyknite. Certain breeders actions speak louder than their talk. Anyone that has followed all those posts on this forum can see that.

Tracie your post was excellent.

Sandy
 
Vicki
I can see you missed the point. My post was not about insinuations or accusations. It was full of questions. Questions that would finalize the thoughts of so many. If we don’t soundly answer those questions……..do they not lay as dormant thoughts? I never accused anyone of anything, nor do I intend to. But typically, those easily offended are the ones that carry the most guilt.


Wendy Thomas posted :
I emailed Dr. Jacobson and asked the following questions:

How many dragons were tested? From how many colonies? How many were suspected of having adenovirus and were showing some type of symptoms? How many were otherwise healthy and the owner was testing to see if they carried the virus? What part of the U.S. were the dragons from? Where were the breeders located that they originated from? Was it more prevalent in some areas of the country? What is the testing time period?

He emailed back and said I presented a number of very good questions but it is beyond their ability to provide answers to all of them. He also said many people provide samples without giving them detailed background on their animals..


Can the answers to those questions that Wendy asked be given at this time? If so, where are they?

Without contacting a very busy man to ask the same repetitive questions of him, I relied on the information given to us by Wendy. I feel what she has to offer to this community is in it’s best interests and considering her position, she has no need or desire to lie to anyone.

What is positively indicated is that we don’t have the answers we seek. Plain and simple. Why is ok for one group of people to “question the answers” before this paper was released and now that another group had additional questions it’s not ok? Was there not a controversial discussion over the validity of EM fecal and PCR and the rate of accuracy? Did this community find some sort of answer in those discussions? It appears that it must have.
Now, I must know, since when is it not ok to rely on the information posted by respectable members?

Did Jacobson not say that Potentially positive animals should not be bred? So tell us……..without testing, how does one determine that fine line?

I’ll not apologize for asking questions that are well within my rights and in the minds of more than just me. You can forget that. I was under the assumption that this forum was designed to discuss possibilities and potentials to better carry on this species. But since you seem to be the leader of authority here……….I’ll assume that observation was wrong.

I find it astonishing that this is how you address the people Vicki. The same people that look to you as a possible breeder for the dragon they choose. I am nobody to you, I am only a person that owns dragons. Yet you immediately insult me, without the first attempt to offer information into the inquiry I made. I also asked questions as to what is thought to make some appear healthy and others die……..but that got blown off to the side for you act as tho this were a personal attack on you.
I refuse to belittle myself or you by uttering profanities at you like a spoiled child much in the same way you’ve done. Grow up………it’s not a business for all of us.

I have no guilt for what I said. But the thought isn’t mine alone. Maybe you should run your own study on that.
 
:iagree:
I agree totally with you on this one.. The questions werent answered when they were asked. So if we are not given these answers. What I feel are simple ones.. Then what are we supposed to think. Is there a reason why they arent being given?
If this is for research they should be keeping track of who and location of to see if it may be worse in some areas? I would think so. To me its a logical thing.
 
Drache613 said:
IF there is no guideline then nothing will ever get started. It definitely isn't going to get fixed overnight. All of the arguing isn't going to fix it either. So what if every question isn't answered yet, but I am quite sure that they will be soon.
But who makes the guideline? No one doing research is going to commit to drawing lines. Apparently, they're not even willing to count. (BTW - if someone knows how to calculate a percentage without knowing the total, please clue me in on this "new math".) The most you're going to get is "only breed negative animals", but so far they can't honestly tell you what a live negative animal is. Breeders could make guidelines, but just reading these threads will tell you that there's not going to be any broad agreement coming from that source.

It's not really a matter of "nothing will ever get started" - plenty has been started. It's just all going in different directions, and leading nowhere, so far.

And you're right, it definitely won't be fixed overnight. At this point, I wouldn't bet on it ever being "fixed". Or that it's even possible.

Drache613 said:
Yes, according to the UF document, some dragons exhibit no symptoms while others do & simply die. Why are some dragons' immune systems better than others? Survival of the Fittest I guess, but, we are not helping the species along with our haphazard acts. I wish I knew the answers to why some dragons' genetics were better than others, but I don't. The same thing goes for people, why do some people who smoke get lung cancer while some smoke their whole life & never get lung cancer? It makes no sense. The best thing I can come up with is genetics & predetermined vulnerability to disease due to weakened immune systems. We need to give the dragons the best chance for survival.
Disclaimer: "This isn't necessarily my point of view, just presenting a valid argument here." ;)

If the number and distribution of AV negative dragons is such that it's not going to be possible to selectively breed it out of the population, you've just made the best argument for breeding positive animals. Eventually you would be left with only animals that whose "genetics were better than others", wouldn't you? Wouldn't the end result be beardies that don't have a "predetermined vulnerability to disease"?

Again, the whole argument hinges on believing that it's not going to be possible to knock AV down to the point where the numbers we've been seeing are reversed. I guess only time will tell.

Drache613 said:
All most of us are asking is to please be responsible breeders. Just do the testing. I am quite aware how expensive it is, but, if no one does it because they think why bother everyone has it anyway, everyone definitely WILL have it.
Great idea, but it's not going to happen. Not as long as the majority of beardies sold are not financially worth the price of the test. Like it or not, dollars are going to drive what happens with this, and there's not much you or I can do about it.
 
Motor City Dragons said:
(BTW - if someone knows how to calculate a percentage without knowing the total, please clue me in on this "new math".)

Actually, there IS a way to do this, but the sample group has to be specifically and scientifically selected. Apparently, this has not yet been done.

Add in the fact that one negative result on a specimen does not guarantee anything, and it becomes a rather expensive and daunting task.
 
Hello

Hello,

Of course you can breed it out of an animal, you can just not start with a postive on to begin with & then you don't have to worry about breeding it out of them! That is pretty easy to figure out.
Apparently, the US is the only country having this type of trouble with the species. We have not treated this species correctly. We are overbreeding, exploiting the animals, for greed & knowingly spreading the virus. People are not quarantining like they are supposed to because they are in such a hurry to breed. That is NOT going to fix a thing.
There are other jobs you can do besides breeding. So be it if you have to stop breeding for awhile. It isn't about you, it's about the dragons. When are some of you going to just figure that out & quit arguing about it.
Selective breeding cannot even start right now with so many positive animals. Sure some get sick, & some don't. Like I said, do you really want to have all postive animals when you could have a negative one?
Yes, others have better immune systems than others, but we wouldn't have to worry about that so much if there weren't virus' hanging out waiting to knock them out. Sure nature doesn't select the weak, & unfortunately there isn't much we can do about that. However, being born with the virus makes them vulnerable to disease more so than just having weak genetics such as being small or inbred.
I would never advocate breeding positives, ever. That just doesn't give the species a chance at all. This mentality of everyone thinking that dragons
ALL have adenovirus is just ridiculous. If that is the case, why haven't we heard about Adeno outbreaks in Australia, since that is where they are originally from? It barely exists, & I don't think there are any documented cases. Their quarantine restrictions are very strict. WE could learn some valuable lessons from them regarding their regimes.
If the american dollar is all that is driving everything around with bearded dragons, then, breeders must not think much of their product. The animals are suffering at our expense & it's time to put them first over money. If you ultimately care about the species like you claim to, that will not be a problem. There are always jobs. Breeding should be for the love of the species, not greed, but I can see that most of you have forgotten that.
I agree with LK, that the ones who get annoyed most have the most to lose. She is not alone in her thoughts, that is for sure. I have no guilt, either & nothing to gain from anything, except knowledge.
Sure things have gotten started, but no one wants to set any standards & be held accountable for anything, as everyone is waiting for someone else to do something. There always has to be a first.


Tracie
 
I'm going to assume that

"There are other jobs you can do besides breeding..."

"It isn't about you, it's about the dragons..."

"If you ultimately care about the species like you claim to..."

etc, etc, etc... is directed at some group in general, and not me specifically. :shrug01:
 
I would guess that it was aimed at the big-scale breeders and whoever else who use the expense of testing and/or the loss of income from NOT breeding positive dragons as an excuse not to do it.

Motor City Dragons said:
Eventually you would be left with only animals that whose "genetics were better than others", wouldn't you?

I suppose that is possible...or end up wiping out most of the Beardie population in general. But until that point, as it continues to grow more and more prevalent, and the supposed "genetically superior" animals evolve, what do we do with all of the less fortunate, "non-genetically superior" animals we keep pumping out? You know, the ones who DO get sick and die, and suffer in the process. The ones that break people's hearts when they do all they can, but their pets wither and die regardless?

Motor City Dragons said:
No one doing research is going to commit to drawing lines.

Unless I am mistaken, I believe Dr. Jacobsen specifically recommended NOT breeding positive dragons. I'd call that a starting line drawn.
 
Cat_72 said:
I suppose that is possible...or end up wiping out most of the Beardie population in general. But until that point, as it continues to grow more and more prevalent, and the supposed "genetically superior" animals evolve, what do we do with all of the less fortunate, "non-genetically superior" animals we keep pumping out? You know, the ones who DO get sick and die, and suffer in the process. The ones that break people's hearts when they do all they can, but their pets wither and die regardless?
I don't know, and that's exactly why I'm not doing it.


Cat_72 said:
Unless I am mistaken, I believe Dr. Jacobsen specifically recommended NOT breeding positive dragons. I'd call that a starting line drawn.
If it's a line, how can you tell where the line is? Does it mean don't breed dragons that have tested positive, or does it mean only breed dragons that have tested negative?

Not breeding a dragon that has tested positive is easy enough, but what do you do with a negative test? How many times do you need to test negative before it's ok to go ahead and breed?

What happens when you breed two that have tested negative, who later test positive, and you've just made a whole bunch of those "non-genetically superior" animals? Despite all good intentions, you still would have the same end result as someone who knowingly bred two positive animals.

Some times I'm actually happy to not be doing this any more.
 
Cat_72 said:
Unless I am mistaken, I believe Dr. Jacobsen specifically recommended NOT breeding positive dragons. I'd call that a starting line drawn.

Right. Dr. Jacobsen's statement is fairly straightforward and unambiguous.

And, yes it is a starting line, but so little is really known, whether it will stand the test of time is anyone's guess.
 
Right. Dr. Jacobsen's statement is fairly straightforward and unambiguous
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Right ....The point is .... The Line has been documented by other researcher's do not breed known Positive Adenovirus Dragons

People knew this before now..

We need to start to really do something

The Bearded Dragons Lines have already been weakened ...

Why continue As has been followed / done for the last 15 years or so?

What will you have left besides no income and problematic animals that no one wants.
 
Hello

Hello,

Yes, my statement was aimed at the larger scale breeders who don't have any regard for their stock or don't seem to. If a breeder is trying, & doing the testing, that is at this point, what we are asking them to do. However, to just simply ignore the problems at hand because they are full of excuses, well, that is not acceptable.
Sorry I should have made myself more clear. :) Yes, Dr. Jacobson was very clear in not breeding positive animals. I think eventually, things will get ironed out, but people need to make the effort & quit pretending that it is going to go away on its' own.

Tracie
 
Ok all, I have read through this whole thing.


I have no desire to debate the presence or non-presence.


Here is my situation and I was hoping for guidance in this thread. So far, I found inconclusive discussion and bickering....

Please, if anyone has ANY advice on how to proceed post it, PM it, email it...I don't care. I just need to figure it out.

I am a small breeder in northern califnornia. I have 9 adults.

1 A1 Reptile RedXGold female, 3yrs. She was bought as a baby.

1 Sunburst X Normal male 4 years.

I have pictures of their parents. I knew the breeder well.


These are the parents. Niether exhibit any signs or symptoms of AV.

I have a clutch of dragons(4 weeks old) that have two babies expire for unknown reasons. One the wife froze the first and the other died yesterday and was refrigerated.

I have contacted my vet and they are finding out what lab to use and if they test for AV.

Can someone please point me to a list of symptoms?

The two that have died presented with loss of appetite, non-active. A day later were appearing dehydrated and non-active. We started treating for dehydration with no positive results.

The third one is not doing good today and another is presenting with these symptoms. We didn't notice the other dragons doing this, but he has the same symptoms and at this time is arching his head back and appearing to keep trying to swallow. I fear he won't make it to see the next hour.


I understand losing babies is something that happens for breeders, but my desire is lose as little as possible, especially something that I can minimize or stop altogether.

Do these sound like the symptoms of AV? We have ruled out most factors at this point. We have begun isolating the ones that show symptoms in an attempt to track the problem.


Setups: Large Plastic totes, ReptileUV 60watt external ballasted Mercury Vapor specialty lights and ReptileUV infared heat emitters. Basking temps are 101 - 106 degree Farenheit and cool side is 75 degree faranheit. They are fed assorted greens(mustard greens, collard, dandelion and turnip), silkworms(bred by us), RepCal dry pellets(mushed with water), crickets(bought weekly from breeder) and Nature's own Dragon Bites(cut up to thier size).

As you can see, we try our best to give them the optimal enviroment.


Any help is appreciated. If this needs to be moved somewhere else, I apologize and ask the mods to please move to appropriate forum or thread. I welcome all suggestions.

OUCH! Vet just called and they want to charge me $200 per Necropsy. *sigh* I guess I have no choice. If anyone has any suggestions on this too, it would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks in Advance and if this does get moved can you just drop me a note to let me know where so I can check for answers and or questions?
 
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