Adenovirus Document from University of Florida

[Cat_72]

I have negative test results verifiable with Florida and IL.


I meant only a wacko would give a negative guarantee on a baby, I was thinking of Chastity and she was making this premature gaurantee with great conviction. I think she is not all there.

Yes, I see clearly that I said only wackos have negative dragons. It is written plain as day and I retract that.

Tammy

That makes more sense said that way, thank you, Tammy. I understand where you were coming from.

Denise...that is the million dollar question..where DO we go from here? I point back to Dr. Jacobsen saying that we need to be testing, be honest, and do everything we ALL can to establish colonies of negative dragons. We cannot ignore this, because it is not going to just go away. I just wish we could figure out a way that we can all work together!

 

[Mad4You2]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I've spent several hours reading your posts. I had a necropsy done on Etouffee when she died last month. I spoke with the vet at Texas A&M College of Vet Medicine today and told her that my vet told me that Adenovirus was negative, but I do not see those words in the necropsy report. She told me that she did the advanced studies herself and she was positive that there were no signs of adenovirus in any of the organ tissue samples that were examined. She is amending her conclusion on the report to state that.

We do know conclusively what caused Etouffee's death, egg stasis and aspiration pneumonia. The lab did not find any signs of Adenovirus. They did not run DNA testing. So what can we conclude from this? She was a negative dragon? I spent a ton of money and we still don't know because they could have missed the Adenovirus on the advanced studies? Do I know anything more than she is dead and I have a clutch of eggs that might be infected?

What an insidious disease.

 

[Denisebme]

That makes more sense said that way, thank you, Tammy. I understand where you were coming from.

Denise...that is the million dollar question..where DO we go from here? I point back to Dr. Jacobsen saying that we need to be testing, be honest, and do everything we ALL can to establish colonies of negative dragons. We cannot ignore this, because it is not going to just go away. I just wish we could figure out a way that we can all work together!

I with you all the way on that sentiment. At this point, I think there are two very different issues. The first is of course to attempt to build negative colonies, but that is going to take long term testing and we still have a lot of learning to do to figure out just how to go about that.
The second is to support and create an environment to support people that have AV positive Beardies with health problems. No one should be fearful of coming forward with test results, asking questions or asking for help. There is a lot of knowledge in this community, and some of it should be focused toward helping people who through no fault of their own are dealing with big issues. I'm absolutely amazed by a lot of the email I've seen in the last 10 days or so, there are some amazingly committed people that really want to help find answers, and I'd rather be a part of the solution for them instead of part of the problem.
All the fighting isn't going to solve anything, and I don't think any of us have the answers we'd like to have right now. I just want to find a way to move forward.

 

[Denisebme]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I've spent several hours reading your posts. I had a necropsy done on Etouffee when she died last month. I spoke with the vet at Texas A&M College of Vet Medicine today and told her that my vet told me that Adenovirus was negative, but I do not see those words in the necropsy report. She told me that she did the advanced studies herself and she was positive that there were no signs of adenovirus in any of the organ tissue samples that were examined. She is amending her conclusion on the report to state that.

We do know conclusively what caused Etouffee's death, egg stasis and aspiration pneumonia. The lab did not find any signs of Adenovirus. They did not run DNA testing. So what can we conclude from this? She was a negative dragon? I spent a ton of money and we still don't know because they could have missed the Adenovirus on the advanced studies? Do I know anything more than she is dead and I have a clutch of eggs that might be infected?

What an insidious disease.

Hi Angie,
I'm not sure you can really conclude anything regarding Adenovirus, but I'm very sorry for your loss.
There are some options for you with the babies once they hatch. You can clutch test the babies via fecal EM fairly inexpensively or you can have your vet contact Dr. Jacobson regarding clutch testing via PCR. In the end, its just a preliminary result though. I wish someone could give you a better answer than that.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Here's hoping for a bunch of healthy, thriving babies.

 

[Mad4You2]

Hi Denise,

Thanks for the condolences.

I have frozen poop in the freezer waiting to put it in the tubes to send to Illinois for EM testing from my 3 remaining adults. I had thought about sending fecals from the babies when they hatch to test them. I thought that I could get results from the EM and it would tell me if the 3 adults were positive or not, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

I had hoped to be able to tell anyone that wanted to get a baby that I had them tested for Adeno and they were negative but after reading all the research, I don't think you can ever say that with what is known about Adeno at this point.

It's all very discouraging. After reading everything I'm not sure any of it would be conclusive - maybe we'd have negatives this time, but is there even enough data to recommend the frequency and duration of follow up EM tests? How many negatives before they really are negative? From what I can tell by reading everything I can find, no one knows the answer.

I would like to say that you guys are really making people think and that's always a good way to start trying to make a difference. Thanks for that.

 

[Denisebme]

Hi Denise,

Thanks for the condolences.

I have frozen poop in the freezer waiting to put it in the tubes to send to Illinois for EM testing from my 3 remaining adults. I had thought about sending fecals from the babies when they hatch to test them. I thought that I could get results from the EM and it would tell me if the 3 adults were positive or not, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

I had hoped to be able to tell anyone that wanted to get a baby that I had them tested for Adeno and they were negative but after reading all the research, I don't think you can ever say that with what is known about Adeno at this point.

It's all very discouraging. After reading everything I'm not sure any of it would be conclusive - maybe we'd have negatives this time, but is there even enough data to recommend the frequency and duration of follow up EM tests? How many negatives before they really are negative? From what I can tell by reading everything I can find, no one knows the answer.

I would like to say that you guys are really making people think and that's always a good way to start trying to make a difference. Thanks for that.

I have a lot of concerns about the EM testing, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. At this point, we know that there is even an unknown margin of error with PCR, that it takes repeated tests to know anything, and even that is not definite, its just a strong suggestion of true negative results.
It's all very frustrating.
Hopefully this time we'll manage to keep the conversation going because that's how we'll all find answers.
Good luck!

 

[Drache613]

Hello

Hello,

Excellent posts, Denise, by the way.
I agree, it is all very discouraging. However, at least there has been some progress that has come out of this. I think this time, it is not going to go away because people like us wont let it fade into the background. WE ALL want what is best for our dragons, & for their health to be top priority over anything.
What you can say though, Mad4You2, is that YOU are testing, & you are making an effort in this fight against the virus. You can do the best you can & get them tested. No, you cannot make a guarantee, but, being an honest person, you can disclose your test results, & I think at this point, that is all any breeder can do. As long as you are honest, & are making the effort, that is what counts.
Obviously, the more negative tests that come back, the better.
This is what this discussion is for, to help out & come to terms about everything, just in general as to where the direction of things should go. The bearded dragon colonies have suffered greatly because of dishonesty. It is time that there are some changes made, & for the good.

Tracie

 

[mikey]

I was disappointed there were no numbers as well, let's see if we can at least tell us how many owners sent in submissions.

Tammy, were you able to find out any hard numbers from them ?

 

[draggintails]

Jean,
Not yet

 

[Neverland Dragons]

I emailed Dr. Jacobson and asked the following questons:

How many dragons were tested? From how many colonies? How many were suspected of having adenovirus and were showing some type of symptoms? How many were otherwise healthy and the owner was testing to see if they carried the virus? What part of the U.S. were the dragons from? Where were the breeders located that they originated from? Was it more prevalent in some areas of the country? What is the testing time period?

He emailed back and said I presented a number of very good questions but it is beyond their ability to provide answers to all of them. He also said many people provide samples without giving them detailed background on their animals.

I was really hoping to get some solid numbers that would support the conclusions in their paper. I do not doubt that this is wide spread. I am just hoping that as more time passes, we will continue to discuss this and more information will be discovered.

Dr. Jacobson also said that he intends to do some research on whether or not the virus is transmitted through the egg. I am looking forward to seeing what he finds out.

 

[draggintails]

4/13/07 I was told that Dr. Jacobson was contacting other labs and more information on prevalence could be forthcoming. If he sends me this information I will post it here.

Testing the egg will be good to establish vertical transmission or environmental....so this will be a very good bit of information for us.

 

[ladyknite]

As I read thru these posts, the certainty of one thing remains constant. Fear and worry.
We all hoped that the release of the letter from UF-Jacobson would reveal that the majority of the population in the US was not infected and that we stood a shot in the dark against this virus. Instead what we got seemed to be depressing, to say the least.

Without the facts in tact to support the letter such as the answers to Wendy’s questions…….HOW DO WE NOT ASSUME that the deck may have been stacked with positive dragons, all from the same area or that pressure was not applied to the university to produce answers before they were ready. Why was a controlled test not performed?

There is obviously some variation in this virus. We see dragons that falter and die unless they are maintained by us, we see dragons with issues on and off, dragons that are healthy and dragons that are classic FTT. What makes some die and others appear healthy? If it’s a mutated form of the virus…….isn’t that important to know? Or should we wait another bunch of years until they all have the same strain to try to answer those questions?

Now let’s look at a legal point of view.
Under most laws stated, if a merchant sells an animal that is sick or faltering, that said merchant can be held legally and financially responsible (state laws also apply). However a merchant is defined as someone that breeds according to his facility. Not the guy down the road that sells off a clutch or two. Seems to me that it then becomes a buyer beware law with the exception of the large scale breeders.

In reading what is posted throughout all of these discussions, one becomes vaguely aware that if the general census becomes that the adenovirus is prevalent in all colonies across the US, that people have no moral or obligatory issue from this point forward. Does anyone see CONVENIENCE written all over that?

 

[Drache613]

Hello

Hello,

I agree, while it does look extremely depressing, it isn't going to help matters if everyone isn't going to come together & work to get this thing under control as much as possible.
It has to start at the larger scale breeders, because they are the ones who sell mass amounts throughout the country to the petstores, etc, & then the petstores distribute them.
Unfortunately, until some of those questions are answered, it makes it hard to know for sure of what is going on. I would hate to think that the results would be stacked. There have been reports of Adeno outside of florida so we know that Adenovirus is everywhere not just in florida.
I hope that more definitive testing measures come soon, for a more larger populations. This IS a start though.
Everyone needs to cooperate if it is going to improve.

Tracie

 

[walker75]

As I read thru these posts, the certainty of one thing remains constant. Fear and worry.
We all hoped that the release of the letter from UF-Jacobson would reveal that the majority of the population in the US was not infected and that we stood a shot in the dark against this virus. Instead what we got seemed to be depressing, to say the least.

Without the facts in tact to support the letter such as the answers to Wendy’s questions…….HOW DO WE NOT ASSUME that the deck may have been stacked with positive dragons, all from the same area or that pressure was not applied to the university to produce answers before they were ready. Why was a controlled test not performed?

There is obviously some variation in this virus. We see dragons that falter and die unless they are maintained by us, we see dragons with issues on and off, dragons that are healthy and dragons that are classic FTT. What makes some die and others appear healthy? If it’s a mutated form of the virus…….isn’t that important to know? Or should we wait another bunch of years until they all have the same strain to try to answer those questions?

Now let’s look at a legal point of view.
Under most laws stated, if a merchant sells an animal that is sick or faltering, that said merchant can be held legally and financially responsible (state laws also apply). However a merchant is defined as someone that breeds according to his facility. Not the guy down the road that sells off a clutch or two. Seems to me that it then becomes a buyer beware law with the exception of the large scale breeders.

In reading what is posted throughout all of these discussions, one becomes vaguely aware that if the general census becomes that the adenovirus is prevalent in all colonies across the US, that people have no moral or obligatory issue from this point forward. Does anyone see CONVENIENCE written all over that?

With this post

From what I have seen on some breeder sites is that they are " now " incubating known positives eggs from positive dragons that have tested positive.

They are continuing the cycle futher with out regard and charging what more money for the morph that has Adenovirus

Which means to me they never had any desire to contain or control this Virus and wants the General Public to believe that this Virus is in all Colonies and Line in the US.

Thus confirming that they have and had knowing passed this Virus unto others with out there Consent nor Knowledge.

Why ?? Because we now TESTING TO Test for Adenovirus...

SO all who have been affected and no longer will breed

IS what forgotten about??? OH NO

We need Controlled studies with Real Solid Information

The Answer's to Wendy's questions would be a great start..

I believe people have been set up and sold healthy positives without their consent nor knowledge,

I would want a refund myself plus damages to my business and Cost..

That one positive animal Contaminated all the others in the colony.. then unknowing breed ... those sold and on and on

Until 2 BRAVE LADIES CAME FORWARD

This may be prevalent but we need better, harder facts ,real numbers real facts....

Other wise to me this kinda smells of being bought and paid for by big breeders...

 

[Drache613]

Hello

Hello,

Well, very true!! The larger scale breeders don't want to test because they say it is incovenient & too costly for them! They have no regard for the animals or for the consumers.
No one is going to test especially if the larger scale breeders don't, there will always be some type of excuse. The virus will never be controlled. Who knows, maybe they maliciously decided to infect other colonies because they were jealous of some, I don't know. Or, they simply do not care.
Geez, do you really think that they would pay someone off? Do I even need to ask that question? What are you saying that the larger breeders are manipulating the system to make it look like they all have it or what? Sorry don't mean to sound so ignorant.
I knew they were still going to breed & incubate positive dragons, no doubt about that. Very sad.


Tracie

 

[Dachiu]

It has taken me a few days to overcome my amazement of these last few posts. The insinuations that the University of FL. has in some way been pressured in any way or paid off to release information which is contrary to their own findings is absolutely, absurdly ridiculous - and you should be ashamed of suggesting such a thing.

The idea that any particular breeder or group of breeders would intentionally submit positive samples to ‘skew’ or ‘stack’ the results to favor a particular outcome - is another situation entirely. If this is truly what any of you believe, then you need to state exactly who those breeders are that you suspect of doing such a thing. This is a very serious accusation - so either put your cards on the table, people… or fold.

Moving on, if you believe with any conviction that what you suspect may be true… you need to pick up the phone and contact the University of Fl. directly for the answers you seek… and please post any facts that you may have been given.

These latest remarks positively indicate that a few of you believe the panel of researchers who put this paper together are altogether incompetent when it comes to analyzing the data they have complied over the years. You hint that Dr Jacobson and his team do not know the value of weighting actual test results against the sample sources and just haphazardly put this paper together to present to the public. I don’t believe you can be any more disrespectful than this.

But, if you are the least bit unsure of yourself and/or do not have the guts to contact and question the researchers on this issue then you need to pull up your panties and stop showing your ass on the forum -
then apologize for your behavior.

 

[varnyard]

It has taken me a few days to overcome my amazement of these last few posts. The insinuations that the University of FL. has in some way been pressured in any way or paid off to release information which is contrary to their own findings is absolutely, absurdly ridiculous - and you should be ashamed of suggesting such a thing.

The idea that any particular breeder or group of breeders would intentionally submit positive samples to ‘skew’ or ‘stack’ the results to favor a particular outcome - is another situation entirely. If this is truly what any of you believe, then you need to state exactly who those breeders are that you suspect of doing such a thing. This is a very serious accusation - so either put your cards on the table, people… or fold.

Moving on, if you believe with any conviction that what you suspect may be true… you need to pick up the phone and contact the University of Fl. directly for the answers you seek… and please post any facts that you may have been given.

These latest remarks positively indicate that a few of you believe the panel of researchers who put this paper together are altogether incompetent when it comes to analyzing the data they have complied over the years. You hint that Dr Jacobson and his team do not know the value of weighting actual test results against the sample sources and just haphazardly put this paper together to present to the public. I don’t believe you can be any more disrespectful than this.

But, if you are the least bit unsure of yourself and/or do not have the guts to contact and question the researchers on this issue then you need to pull up your panties and stop showing your ass on the forum -
then apologize for your behavior.

Funny how you can say that Dachiu: absolutely, absurdly ridiculous indeed.

I think that was the same thing I told you not too long ago.

Dachiu: so either put your cards on the table, people… or fold.

This is also a funny statment, looking back at you having some questions to answer yourself.

 

[varnyard]

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Dachiu
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I wonder??

 

[mikey]

Bobby, get over it !! You are still acting like a 5th grader at recess, you got involved with a subject with you had ZERO knowledge of and you ran with it. You have only yourself to blame for looking like a FOOL(Tool) you do now. You changed sides as often as a 5th grader changes best friends.

 

[varnyard]

Bobby, get over it !! You are still acting like a 5th grader at recess, you got involved with a subject with you had ZERO knowledge of and you ran with it. You have only yourself to blame for looking like a FOOL(Tool) you do now. You changed sides as often as a 5th grader changes best friends.

I choose the truth, that what I support.

Yep, I think we all know who is behind this.

Dachiu
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