Allowing scammers and thieves to stay on Fauna!

[rodneynboalich]

once again how many breeders here that have to compete with the scammers undercutting and bringing down market values set by supply and demand.

i think the problem here is you people arnt looking at the whole picture. your so focused on the boi and and mods and forum rules which is fine but they do not represent the whole picture nor do minor issue therein supersede the need for regulating. im all for a free market but as it stands now its very hard to get justice if your ripped off. especially if you buy a snake form out of state. to take them to court you have to go to the state in which the animal came from if they decide to fight it

 

[jmwboas]

once again how many breeders here that have to compete with the scammers undercutting and bringing down market values set by supply and demand.

i think the problem here is you people arnt looking at the whole picture. your so focused on the boi and and mods and forum rules which is fine but they do not represent the whole picture nor do minor issue therein supersede the need for regulating. im all for a free market but as it stands now its very hard to get justice if your ripped off. especially if you buy a snake form out of state. to take them to court you have to go to the state in which the animal came from if they decide to fight it

This is the reason that I prefer to do things face to face. I get to see EXACTLY what I am buying. If you could also hit that little button called spell check, that might help you get YOUR point across. Not saying I am perfect, but aleast you can understand my post. Just sayin!

 

[Focal]

once again how many breeders here that have to compete with the scammers undercutting and bringing down market values set by supply and demand.

In all seriousness, I don't understand what you are getting at. The scammers can't bring down the market price if they are scamming. If someone wants to pay rock bottom from a no-name, aren't they bringing the market down?

 

[rodneynboalich]

Rodney, you've already pointed out that you disagree with some of the constraints on this site (regarding your ability to express yourself)...but I'm going to suggest that you put some effort into abiding by our rules. This is a privately owned site, and members are subject to the terms and conditions in place; so waving the Bill of Rights around to justify your freedom of speech/expression simply doesn't work.

As far as your stance that we should be weeding people out for various practices - this has been addressed many times over. First and foremost, we are not going to serve as judge and jury on such matters. What is brought to the BOI is often one sided; and, if it isn't, the two sides frequently give different accounts of what happened. You want people with no intimate knowledge of the situation to take one person's side, and remove another person from this site? How many times have we seen questionable, petty, or flat out fabricated complaints brought against a seller (or buyer)? How many BOI posts are essentially one hit wonders - in which a buyer comes in & blasts somebody over some slight (real or perceived), but leaves out the fact that they were fully compensated by the seller...or the buyer fails to come back and update when the situation has been resolved?
Besides, us taking the stance that we will remove anybody shown not to have acceptable business practices would lead to an expectation that anybody advertising here is safe to deal with. Sorry, but a seller's reputation is only as good as his last documented transaction. "Good Guys" can screw people over, "Bad Guys" can provide healthy animals and acceptable customer service....heck, known "Bad Guys" can make good on problems, turn over a new leaf, and become "Good Guys" - it's happened. What are we to do in that case? What would be the process for reinstating somebody? Does making good on a particular transaction mean that the person won't screw up again? By the same token, does a person with an extensive (positive) history deserve to be banned because he feels an issue is not his fault & refuses to yield to the demands of a customer?


As far as the undercutting, sure, SOME scammers use the too good to be true pricing; but not all of them. If you want to talk about the economics and market pricing, there is a thread in the BP forum that includes a few "articles" by Colin Weaver (it should be required reading, lol). http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278912

i agree with what you said except about the swearing. i completely under the horrible position it puts you in to have to make a call to ban someone for being a scammer. and i realize how much crap there is in the boi and you cant just base it on that.

but answer this question please

if someone that has a history of that behavior ie big daddy do you think he should have been ban instead of being allowed to rip people off for all those years.

you have created a medium for buying and selling. it was of your own volition. no one forced you to create this. when you create something you are responsible for it and i realize yu cant control how people choose to react to , or us it to facilitate it for their own personal gain or misuse it. all the people that have got ripped off on fauna is in no way directly your fault but without fauna it wouldnt have happened. so do you fell no need to regulate it a little more.

too be fair im guessing you would be more than happy to take credit for all the good that has came from fauna and rightly so but shouldnt you also at least recognize the negative as well

i know your a lot smarter then most of the people that post and i see when your trying to be fair and people think your being bias simply because your not taking their side

so if you create something that brings about a negative impact (even a small one such as a few scammers) is it your responsibility to correct the problem or should you wash your hands of it

 

[hhmoore]

once again how many breeders here that have to compete with the scammers undercutting and bringing down market values set by supply and demand.

I hate to tell you this, Rodney, but most of the undercutting and dropping of market values is done by real people selling real animals.

 

[rodneynboalich]

I'm going to save the retalitory remarks because you're way too easy. Glad you kept this a civil conversation! BTW, don't you have your own bad guy thread?




You said the same person keeps getting scammed over and over. It's their fault!!! I can find 100 people on here that I KNOW would never scam me. He's a scammer magnet for being cheap, you said it yourself:





I'm still trying to decipher yours



Ok you're starting to get it ...



... AND YOU LOST IT!

Maybe, since they can't ban scammers, they can watch them like a hawk and give them infractions for breaking rules until they are banned




You probably will not see this, but you JUST proved my point.

They always find the BOI when something goes wrong, but never beforehand.



You can leave this question unanswered, as I am sure you will, but how did you find the link to this thread? It wasn't immediately following that long, off topic rant in a random BOI thread that you posted in, was it? You know, that "S**T" you speak of

this is my last post then i have to go ill check it out later
first your shifting the blame for immoral business practices on the buyer which is. and i didnt say they are always getting scammed. i said they have th most potential being new to the industry and they usually get scammed.


i didnt just prove your point you missed mine. my point is the mods are in a position whether they like it or not to do something about whats going on. its not completely out off control.

yes i have my own boi bad guy thread. its a joke fell free to read. and for the s**t on the boi the mod just agreed with me about all the junk on there. and yes i have contributed to the s**t and clearly so have you.

nick i would love to hear your opinions on what i said about the negative impact on the industry regrading scamming and price drops and so on and dont tell me to go look at another thread. we are talking about banning scammers and they do affect prices so that question belongs heres

 

[rodneynboalich]

I hate to tell you this, Rodney, but most of the undercutting and dropping of market values is done by real people selling real animals.

i know and another problem is that people buy a snake and three years later when they breed it get mad that they cant sell the babies for what they paid three years ago

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Rodney, So let's just say we all agree and scammers shouldn't be on here. That we weed them all out. So where do we start and who makes that call?

Who is going to be responsible if we weed out a honest person or miss a bad guy?

Who interprets correct business standards? Do we eliminated everyone we disagree with their return policy? Can you find a dozen "good guys" that agree on a set of standards? If you can, I think you also can find another who disagree with them.

The term "scammer" itself is very subjective. Do we just use it for this purpose for people who don't send product or animals? Or do we include people who don't honor a return? How do you prove they didn't honor the policy without a shadow of doubt?

It isn't such a cut and dry statement to state we should eliminated all scammers, liars and thieves.

Then you have to take into account the liability issue of a site who states they are removing "scammers". Sites operate under different rules that best protect themselves while catering to the needs of those that use their services. Some don't pay much attention to the legalities and some do.
But for most they operate under some framework to protect from liability.

Here people are allowed to post their experiences and information on the BOI and are accountable for their statements. Each individual makes those statements not the site. The site doesn't pronounce guilt. The individual readers give each post the weight they feel it deserves.

If it didn't work that way and the site was held accountable for what others do, nobody would have the ability to posts their experiences because the owner isn't going to accept that responsibility.

The site is able to give you the ability to post a BOI thread because we don't make those judgment calls of who is telling the truth and pronouncing guilt.
The readers and individual posters do that.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

We have not been, are not now, and are not going to be judges in matters of how people or businesses conduct themselves in their own affairs. The BOI is a BOARD of Inquiry composed of all interested persons, such as yourselves, who will read whatever information is provided, and make their own decisions about what they are reading. We are NOT going to classify anyone as being innocent or guilty of any incident involving how they do business. Period.

As for posting classified ads, again, no, it is not our job to determine whether or not you should buy from someone. That is YOUR job using the tools provided here for you to be able to make a well informed decision. We are NOT going to decide who is or is not qualified to post ads here based on any criteria whatsoever. It is your job to research the sellers adequately and sufficiently to make your own decisions about what to do. For us to do otherwise would likely be an extraordinarily stupid thing for me to do, in that by implication, I would be placing myself in legal jeopardy by making the implied assurance that all sellers here ARE guaranteed to be qualified to do business with based on the fact that they ARE selling here. That just is not going to happen, because it CAN'T realistically happen.

___________________________________

 

[WebSlave]

i realize that banning people for selling animals is hard. my point is that it shouldnt be over looked. and you sound worse than snotty to put the blame on the customer for getting scammed. in fact you sound like an xxx hole. the customer shouldnt have to (especially to the point that is unfortunatly needed in our industry) investigate sellers before they make a purchase which has been brought about by you kinda mindset that is already entirely too prevalent within the hobby as is. through out societies across the world there is a accepted general practice for business which is a fair and just way business is supposed to be conducted and the scammers do not follow the rules. as for the scammers bringing money to he industry with the money they paid for their tables and memberships on classifieds it dose not negate nor overshadow the harmful impact they do to the industry with their practices. im sorry but a glib little quote proves nothing including your point. its the mods job to rule on such issues and i think they should and hold the people on their site to a higher level of scrutiny instead of wasnt their time giving me infractions for swearing.

your whole way of thinking is void of some simple cause and effect that the mods could easily hand down for immoral business dealing instead of waiting on karma to rear its mystic judicial head and righting all wrongs. its a fairytale way of thinking and thinking that people that are new to the hobby will know enough to go on the boi and sift through that mountain of XXXX and extract the few diamonds of truth therein is even less likely.

The bolded was unnecessary. Nick took the time, patience and was SPOT ON explaining why the BGs shouldn't be banned. None of us are our neighbor's keeper to the extent that we can keep them from stumbling all the time. Each member is responsible for their own research and they have the capacity to ask a Mod for advice searching if necessary.

Those that don't know of the BOI soon learn.

Yes, and that got Rodney pushed over the edge with infraction points and banned here temporarily.

Sorry, but no, and I've stated this MANY times over the years, we are not going to act as judges in incidents that we do not have any personal knowledge of. EVERYTHING is hearsay, when it comes right down to it. A person industrious enough can counterfeit any evidence that they care to. And certainly some do. Many get caught out, to their own detriment, but staff here is certainly not going to take on the burden and responsibility of spending our time and efforts to try to verify everything everyone posts in the BOI. We are NOT going to be judges in such matters. That is completely up to the readership to make up their own minds based on the opinions they form based on the evidence (real or otherwise) presented.

I'm sure some people would love to live in a world that is completely rubber baby buggy bumpered from one end to the next, top to bottom, but THIS site is just not that place. Members can swing a pretty sharp sword in the BOI, but soon learn that the blade certainly can cut both ways if their aim is not true.

 

[WebSlave]

Unless there is strong objection to it, I believe this thread really belongs in the Feedback Forum, since it's topic focus is clearly on how this site is run. Which, of course, is what the Feedback Forum is there for....

 

[Focal]

nick i would love to hear your opinions on what i said about the negative impact on the industry regrading scamming and price drops and so on and dont tell me to go look at another thread. we are talking about banning scammers and they do affect prices so that question belongs heres

That's two different beasts Rodney. This is in regards to banning scammers. Even if tomorrow, the world changes and every scammer is banned from fauna, I don't think the prices would change ... if anything, I think they would probably drop.

There is this little medium where people try to balance out price and who they trust enough to purchase from. Besides those truly concerned about quality, most people would pick the cheapest person if everyone was equally trustworthy, thus dropping the prices quicker. I will honestly pay a trusted good guy MORE money than someone that could be a scammer. Without scammers in the picture, I'd go with the cheaper good guy with the same quality animal most of the time and the guy that wanted more would probably drop.

 

[rodneynboalich]

webslave im glad to see i got ban for a couple days for doing something you mods do. i thought i could us swear words if i miss spelled them since hhmoore did in in my bad guy thread


hhmoore
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I don't want to jump into your pi$$ing contest; but one successful season, with plans for more, doesn't make a person "a breeder". I'm not knocking you, and I have no idea what your experience level is - just going by your own statement.
Heck, I bred my first snakes back in 1992, and I rarely refer to myself as a breeder.
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i guess ill have to go back and read the double standard clause in the rule book

 

[rodneynboalich]

This is the reason that I prefer to do things face to face. I get to see EXACTLY what I am buying. If you could also hit that little button called spell check, that might help you get YOUR point across. Not saying I am perfect, but aleast you can understand my post. Just sayin!

great advice but right back at you aleast just sayin

 

[Focal]

I think everyone is out to get you Rodney.

 

[rodneynboalich]

Rodney, So let's just say we all agree and scammers shouldn't be on here. That we weed them all out. So where do we start and who makes that call?

Who is going to be responsible if we weed out a honest person or miss a bad guy?

Who interprets correct business standards? Do we eliminated everyone we disagree with their return policy? Can you find a dozen "good guys" that agree on a set of standards? If you can, I think you also can find another who disagree with them.

The term "scammer" itself is very subjective. Do we just use it for this purpose for people who don't send product or animals? Or do we include people who don't honor a return? How do you prove they didn't honor the policy without a shadow of doubt?

It isn't such a cut and dry statement to state we should eliminated all scammers, liars and thieves.

Then you have to take into account the liability issue of a site who states they are removing "scammers". Sites operate under different rules that best protect themselves while catering to the needs of those that use their services. Some don't pay much attention to the legalities and some do.
But for most they operate under some framework to protect from liability.

Here people are allowed to post their experiences and information on the BOI and are accountable for their statements. Each individual makes those statements not the site. The site doesn't pronounce guilt. The individual readers give each post the weight they feel it deserves.

If it didn't work that way and the site was held accountable for what others do, nobody would have the ability to posts their experiences because the owner isn't going to accept that responsibility.

The site is able to give you the ability to post a BOI thread because we don't make those judgment calls of who is telling the truth and pronouncing guilt.
The readers and individual posters do that.

could you please answer this question

you have created a medium for buying and selling. it was of your own volition. no one forced you to create this. when you create something you are responsible for it and i realize yu cant control how people choose to react to , or us it to facilitate it for their own personal gain or misuse it. all the people that have got ripped off on fauna is in no way was directly your fault but without fauna it wouldnt have happened. so do you fell no need to regulate it a little more. and dont try to us the cop out that just because you created something its not up to you to police how people use it. like in the case of a gun or car manufacture. no they cant control how its used. and that would not be comparable example since its out of their hands they are no longer involved. they offer up a produce and sell it. fauna is much different. you created this and set up some rules for use and you monitor it daily. you recognized from the beginning the need for regulation.

my point is that there could be a little more done about the blatant scam artist that rip people off.

and why wont anyone answer my question about big daddy. hes a perfect example of someone that needed to have his ability to advertise to he general public limited

i know you dont want to play judge and jury im not saying you should for every little boi thread. that would be stupid.

faunas reputation is sometimes seen as the safe haven for the losers that got kicked off kingsnake.

as far as not having the time to regulate a little more what gos on on this site i find it hard to believe you dont have the time. every time ive swore in a thread ive got an infarction within an hour of doing so. so you have time to catch that but not time to deal with classified post that are clearly misrepresenting animals and so on.

again im not talking about strict rules for posting or banning everyone that gets a bad guy boi

but i think you could at least hand out infractions or red flag people that consistently practice bad business.

as for how to deal with the issues is where i think the problem is. its the set of guidelines and rule that must be established first.

1 i think you should at least investigate a little when evidences is shown that an add is deceptive. such as the ballistic balls post with one of my animals. i showed the snake in question here at my house. i had pics of the parents, it hatching out and so on. the genetics were shown to be not what he was advertising it as. and once that was dont the only action taken by the mods was basically telling people to stop harassing him about it. he was never told to remove the post. why? it was a direct attempt at deception on his part. just a few weeks earlier he had the same snake posted for sale as being what it was and it didnt sell so he posted it as something it wasnt.

i agree that going after every scammer after the fact would be a never ending battle.

but to do something about it before hand would go a long way.

if you had a disclaimer that your site would try to ensure that scammers would be held accountable for their actions in the form of infraction, losing their right to post and even being ban if their behavior continued. but at the same time said you can in no way police every single transaction that occurs. i think it would go a long way with the customer. i have to admit that it would deter to some extent some of scumbags from even using your site and with less of them that means less stupid boi,s that you guys get drug into all the time. in the beginning i think it would be a lot of work but in the long run i think it would lead to less headaches

as for the liability issue. bare in mind its a private site and you have your own set of rules like you keep reminding me every time i swear.

as for the word scammers being subjective i think that will lead to a useless argument of linguistics. and at the same time i think it also shows the value of the boi. if it cant be proven then the boi is there

 

[WebSlave]

webslave im glad to see i got ban for a couple days for doing something you mods do. i thought i could us swear words if i miss spelled them since hhmoore did in in my bad guy thread


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I don't want to jump into your pi$$ing contest; but one successful season, with plans for more, doesn't make a person "a breeder". I'm not knocking you, and I have no idea what your experience level is - just going by your own statement.
Heck, I bred my first snakes back in 1992, and I rarely refer to myself as a breeder.
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i guess ill have to go back and read the double standard clause in the rule book

Sheesh, give me a break.... "pissing" is NOT profanity in my book. What words did YOU use?

 

[WebSlave]

could you please answer this question

you have created a medium for buying and selling. it was of your own volition. no one forced you to create this. when you create something you are responsible for it and i realize yu cant control how people choose to react to , or us it to facilitate it for their own personal gain or misuse it. all the people that have got ripped off on fauna is in no way was directly your fault but without fauna it wouldnt have happened. so do you fell no need to regulate it a little more. and dont try to us the cop out that just because you created something its not up to you to police how people use it. like in the case of a gun or car manufacture. no they cant control how its used. and that would not be comparable example since its out of their hands they are no longer involved. they offer up a produce and sell it. fauna is much different. you created this and set up some rules for use and you monitor it daily. you recognized from the beginning the need for regulation.

my point is that there could be a little more done about the blatant scam artist that rip people off.

and why wont anyone answer my question about big daddy. hes a perfect example of someone that needed to have his ability to advertise to he general public limited

i know you dont want to play judge and jury im not saying you should for every little boi thread. that would be stupid.

faunas reputation is sometimes seen as the safe haven for the losers that got kicked off kingsnake.

as far as not having the time to regulate a little more what gos on on this site i find it hard to believe you dont have the time. every time ive swore in a thread ive got an infarction within an hour of doing so. so you have time to catch that but not time to deal with classified post that are clearly misrepresenting animals and so on.

again im not talking about strict rules for posting or banning everyone that gets a bad guy boi

but i think you could at least hand out infractions or red flag people that consistently practice bad business.

as for how to deal with the issues is where i think the problem is. its the set of guidelines and rule that must be established first.

1 i think you should at least investigate a little when evidences is shown that an add is deceptive. such as the ballistic balls post with one of my animals. i showed the snake in question here at my house. i had pics of the parents, it hatching out and so on. the genetics were shown to be not what he was advertising it as. and once that was dont the only action taken by the mods was basically telling people to stop harassing him about it. he was never told to remove the post. why? it was a direct attempt at deception on his part. just a few weeks earlier he had the same snake posted for sale as being what it was and it didnt sell so he posted it as something it wasnt.

i agree that going after every scammer after the fact would be a never ending battle.

but to do something about it before hand would go a long way.

if you had a disclaimer that your site would try to ensure that scammers would be held accountable for their actions in the form of infraction, losing their right to post and even being ban if their behavior continued. but at the same time said you can in no way police every single transaction that occurs. i think it would go a long way with the customer. i have to admit that it would deter to some extent some of scumbags from even using your site and with less of them that means less stupid boi,s that you guys get drug into all the time. in the beginning i think it would be a lot of work but in the long run i think it would lead to less headaches

as for the liability issue. bare in mind its a private site and you have your own set of rules like you keep reminding me every time i swear.

as for the word scammers being subjective i think that will lead to a useless argument of linguistics. and at the same time i think it also shows the value of the boi. if it cant be proven then the boi is there

Just in case you missed this when I posted it earlier in this thread...

Sorry, but no, and I've stated this MANY times over the years, we are not going to act as judges in incidents that we do not have any personal knowledge of. EVERYTHING is hearsay, when it comes right down to it. A person industrious enough can counterfeit any evidence that they care to. And certainly some do. Many get caught out, to their own detriment, but staff here is certainly not going to take on the burden and responsibility of spending our time and efforts to try to verify everything everyone posts in the BOI. We are NOT going to be judges in such matters. That is completely up to the readership to make up their own minds based on the opinions they form based on the evidence (real or otherwise) presented.

I'm sure some people would love to live in a world that is completely rubber baby buggy bumpered from one end to the next, top to bottom, but THIS site is just not that place. Members can swing a pretty sharp sword in the BOI, but soon learn that the blade certainly can cut both ways if their aim is not true.

 

[rodneynboalich]

i think the main opposition to my opinion is the view in which its being looked at. the opposition comes from only seeing it from the side of the owners of the site and what it would mean for them to impose rules on business practices on their site. if you step back and look at it from the consumers point of view i think you would see something very different. so for everyone thats opposed to rules for banning in handing out infractions for people ripping people off on here or caught trying to do so. ask yourself this question if you were going to a store that was basically served as a medium for smaller stores or indiviuals to sell heir goods and when you got there there were two stores. and on the sign out front one said. we are a privately owned store that allows other to use our facility to market and sell their goods and we are in no why responsible for the actions carried out within. but the other sign said the same thing but added. but we will do are best to ensure that you receive the best possible goods and services by eliminate as much of the fraudulent behavior as we can. tell me which store are you going to walk into?

 

[rodneynboalich]

so i can us pissing as much as i want and if its not why did you us pi$$ing