Need help possible hernia baby Candoia

[Helenthereef]

Well, of the two vet clinics in the COUNTRY (apart from big animal government agricultural vet techs), one (the SPCA) has no vet at all right now, only nurses, and the private vet is only in town 2 days a week, so I can't get an opinion until Friday.

I'm thinking of going to the SPCA and getting the smallest dose of dog heartworm medication available and trying to scale it down. The adventures of reptile care in a small island state.....

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

but I guess they have such a slow metabolism that it can take that long for a birth defect to take effect.

Just my opinion, but I'd say if the snake has been eating, and has defecated for you, then it's nothing to do with any late blooming yolk issues.

do you think there's a chance it could be a parasite load? I've seen WC young ATBs get balloon like swellings due to parasite bloom. I was trying to find a pic but haven't had luck. I do belelive it was normally closer to the vent however. Just throwing that out there...
good luck

I have never seen this before. Interesting link you provided. I would have never thought of that, especially after looking at the discoloration in the last pic. Could just be the cam angle though.

 

[Helenthereef]

Well, its a few days later now and no change - for better or for worse.

I got some dog wormer tablets from my local cat/dog Vet (for those who don't know, I'm in a small island state, no reptile vet, so I have to do what I can with what I can get), and I have diluted the (normally given to dogs as a tablet by mouth) tablets down for the tiny body weight.

I intend to give it orally by dropper (I've managed this before with antibiotics). I just want to double check in case anyone knows a reason NOT to do this.

From the link April provided I found out that praziquantal could be a suitable wormer for reptiles. The tablets I have are DRONTAL, which is praziquantal, possibly mixed with pyrantel pamoate and febantel.

Unless anyone cries STOP, I'm going to risk it. Whatever it is it's not fixing itself and this tiny snake can't go much longer without feeding. if I get it wrong and poison her it's at least a faster death than being slowly parasitised or starving.

Any cries of "DON"T DO IT"?

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

My only advice is take extra care to get the dosage right. The vet should have, or should be able to, help you with that.

Good luck. I really hope it's something as simple as a parasite.

 

[Helenthereef]

Thanks, I've gone over the figures time and time again and will do so yet again before I administer - I used to work in laboratories and know how easy it is to slip by a factor of 10 - with very serious consequences.

let me try my (?) logic:

If 1 tablet is used for 10Kg dog, then use half a tab for 5Kg (5,000gm) animal

Dilute half a tab into 10mls = enough for 500gm animal in 1ml

Dropper has 50 drops per 1ml (I have counted them) therefore 1 drop - 1ml /50

One 50th of 500gms is 10gms.

Therefore 1 drop good for 10gm snake......

Sound logical?

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

If you have a way to weigh the tab, then crush the whole thing into powder, and do your dividing with the scale would be my guess. Just looking at the numbers, it looks like you have to divide that tablet into 1000 equal parts for a dose.

Fortunately for me, the smallest snake I ever had to work on was 50gr, so dosing was a little easier to do.

 

[Helenthereef]

Well, I dosed her last night, not too much of a struggle. She's still alive this morning, so I haven't immediately poisoned her. Otherwise she's still alert and moving around when handled, still has the lump.

If it is parasites, and if the medication does work, does anyone have any idea how long it might take for the parasites to die and for her to start passing them?

Need to work out how soon to try feeding her again, or whether to let her stay with an empty digestive tract for a while longer.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

I really don't know to be honest Helen. The few times I've treated for internal parasites, they were ID'd and I was sent home with exactly what I needed, and instructions. Sometimes it was a single dose, other times it was 4-5 doses, and different meds each time. There are a lot of factors like strength of the meds, what kind of parasite you're after, doing it for the right length of time, etc.

I wish I had a better answer for you, but without knowing the strength of the drug and which parasite you're after, your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Helenthereef]

No problems, I appreciate the input you (and the others) have given me so far. I'm working pretty much in the dark, so I'll keep posting as /when I get results - or not.

I am fully aware it could still go either way at this point.

Wish us luck!

 

[Metachrosis]

Tis the same spirit that carried many before us,far removed from this
regurged inter-web garbage that has led the mass's astray.

Your position is "HUGE",the willingness to tackle this is to be commended
Be the outcome good or bad you still "went there"

 

[Helenthereef]

Thank you - I'm just trying to do what I can, my rationalisation is that if this had happened in the wild, it's likely she'd simply have died, so whatever I do is worth a go.....

48 hours later she's still fine, lump still unchanged, but she won't eat (it's now 4 weeks, a long time for a tiny snake). Tonight I made her take 0.5 ml ReptaAid food supplement, and I'm going to continue that so that at least she has some nutrients and hydration.

She's still lively enough when handled, and doesn't appear unwell except for the bulge. She passed urates but no faeces.

I am contemplating trying the heartworm medication I have in a few days, if the stomach worm medication doesn't produce results.

Until then I'm still on wait and see duty....

 

[Metachrosis]

Is there a zoo near you, or any other modern animal care?
An X-ray and or ultra sound would prove mass density or lack
there of.

 

[Helenthereef]

Bad news

I'm afraid she didn't make it.

Last night she was struggling to pass urates, so I held her in a shallow bath of warm water, which did seem to help. She passed some VERY solid looking urates and we noticed what looked a lot like worm or worm segments (VERY tiny), not moving so I presume the worming medication worked and maybe the ReptaAid got her system moving again.

However, she continued to struggle and something that looked like pale flesh started to project from her vent, I was afraid she was prolapsing with the effort. The bulge was not diminishing.

She kept struggling to pass something, but eventually it was too much and she died in my hands.

I did an autopsy, half expecting to find a mass of worms in the bulge, but it was a large amount of soft faecal matter. Her intestine was very enlarged behind it and totally empty beyond it, but I could not see what had been causing the blockage.

There were no obvious worms in her intestine (at least that I could see, you have to remember how tiny she was).

However, what I had thought was a prolapse came away freely when I cut her vent, it just looked like a pale blob of muscle tissue. Maybe a worm head (if so quite large and featureless) or maybe a piece of undigested gecko tail (if so it looked totally undigested or decayed, and her last meal was a month ago)?

I don't know. I'll post the pics when I get time to download them.

At the moment I think it may have been as follows:
I gave her a live gecko (instead of the normal F/t) 3 weeks before this started, as she had not been feeding well - possibly it had intestinal parasites.

If so, the worms (or something else) caused a blockage in her intestine, and faeces started to build up behind this, but she could pass urates. Sensibly (I know I anthropomorphose) she refused more food.

The wormer medication worked, and possibly the ReptaAid got her digestive system going, and MAYBE if I had had the courage to pull what I thought was a prolapse out, she may have been able to pass the faeces, but there was no sign these were moving when I did the autopsy.

My consolation is that this could have happened if she had been in the wild, and that her chances as the runt were reduced anyway. I'm sorry to lose her though, she was a sweetheart.

RIP Corrigan.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

That's rough. Sorry she didn't make it Helen.

 

[Metachrosis]

Bummer,on wards to better days with the rest of the litter

 

[AbsoluteApril]

ah, I'm sorry she didn't make it, but take solace in the fact that you did all you could to give her a chance. My sympathies

 

[Helenthereef]

Thanks to you all, I really wish she'd pulled through, but I was at least half prepared to have to euthanise, so it's a blow but not a devastating one. I would have felt SO great if I'd managed to treat her successfully.

I have 2 of the litter left with me and so far both doing fine, but you can bet at the first sign of going off feed or abdominal bulging there will be worming medication flying around. Also back to my normal practice of ALWAYS feeding them f/t, no alternatives.

However this is the THIRD time I have had problems at the 5 - 6 month old stage, and every time it seems to be digestive issues.

My original two were captive born to a wild caught mother and one of them had what I now think was an impaction (small hard lump which eventually was passed or disappeared) at 6 months old, which necessitated 2 months of assist start feeding. Now he's fine and probably the father of this latest litter.

My next two also were captive born to a wild caught mother, and both died at 5 and 6 months old after regurgitating food, as did 6 of that same litter taken by friends of mine. I was feeding exclusively f/t, friends were using live (wild caught) geckos.

Of this litter (which was captive bred and born from my first generation captive born male and a wild caught mother) of 13, I gave 10 away and kept 3. Two of mine are fine, you just heard what happened to the other. Of the ones I gave away, one stopped eating for over a month, but eventually restarted and seems fine. One has died, regurgitating and not feeding....

However no bulges in the others.

So I'm wondering. In many animals that have large birth numbers it is to allow for the fact that survival may be limited (I'm thinking sea turtles, fish etc). I wonder whether there are genetic weaknesses that may show up in the first 6 months in a certain percentage of the young, or whether this is normal death levels due to parasite loading in wild prey animals.

I realise this is not a normal factor in the hobby where many generations of captive breeding and completely controlled environment leads to the expectation of high survival percentages, but do you have any feeling for the normal survival rates from your boas? Do you expect all to make it?

Just pondering the mysteries of the universe.... death makes me thoughtful....

 

[Helenthereef]

Warning - pics not for squeamish

I am going to post some, pics from the autopsy - don't keep looking if you are squeamish..... but if anyone can help identify what this is I'd be grateful.

In this post, pics of what I think are 2 small worms she passed, what I thought was a prolapse, but what turned out to be a separate piece of pale flesh of some kind, and one of her lower body showing the position of the bulge respective to her vent. In the next post will be dissection photos of her intestine.

 

[Helenthereef]

Post mortem dissection poc - not for the squeamish

Here are 2 pics of the dissection.

One when she was first opened, you can see her internal fat and membranes are clean except for the brown bulge of what was soft faecal matter.

In the the full dissection you can see how enlarged her intestine had become above the bulge and totally empty below it, so there was obviously a fairly long term and significant blockage of some kind.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Looking at that second picture in the first batch, I was thinking prolapsed kidney, but the color isn't right for a kidney. Looking at the next picture though, looks strangely like a partially digested lizard tail, or a piece of one anyway. ????

My guess would be it impacted some how.