Need help possible hernia baby Candoia

[Helenthereef]

I need some opinions please. I'm in Fiji and have no reptile vet available. I need to decide whether to euthanise this baby snake or let nature take its course.

This baby Fiji Boa, Candoia bibroni bibroni was born in May 2011, as the runt of a litter of 13. She has remained smaller than all the others but eats a tiny gecko weekly, and I had high hopes she was going to be fine.

She last ate 3 weeks ago. A week after she ate I noticed her abdomen was swollen bellow her stomach but above her cloaca. It is soft, not like a bolus of food, and I had thought maybe a retained dropping taking its time to come out. I have been bathing her regularly and gave her a drop of fish oil which worked before with a constipated snake.

This lump has remained. I've just been away for 4 days and on my return I can see that the lump has slowly grown. She has refused all food since that last meal.

She does not appear to be in pain, but it is now big enough that she cannot move as easily as normal, and it seems tender. It is located very near her egg sac scar / navel, and now I'm wondering if it is an internal haemorrhage. I was hoping it would heal itself but it seems to be worsening.

Any opinions or experiences would be most appreciated, Thanks.

 

[Metachrosis]

We had one do something very similar this year
The animal passed given everything 4-5 months previous
was text book perfect.
Nature takes care of its own,it's a gamble with captive animals
We as care givers often force animals to exsist outside
of natures perfect design,what appears is not what is.

Responsible action should be taken

 

[Helenthereef]

Yes, she was a risk and probably would not have survived this long in nature. If she dies I'll accept that she was the weakest link and not meant to be.

When you had something similar happen did the snake appear to suffer? (Hard to tell, I know.) I'm pondering whether to let her carry on as long as possible or euthanise at this point.

(I really don't want to euthanise - she's my favourite - but I don't want her to suffer unnecessarily if there is little hope of reversal).

 

[Metachrosis]

The toughest part of our nurturing human nature is to force it on a species
that is incapable of receiving/responding to such an emotion driven process.

I dont believe many animals register"pain" as we understand it,many will argue
but its from a human emotional position and it just doesn't fit,
especially with reptile species.
Pain is an elevated sensory perception,I just dont believe a reptile brain has the capacity.

 

[Helenthereef]

I'd argue that every animal has some form of registerable "pain" - it is, after all, the stimulus that makes a body move away from harm, and as such is something that is basic to all animal life. Even an amoeba will move away from something that is trying to eat it.

I accept that we do over anthromorphosise (sp?) animals, but I would never accept they feel no pain.

In this case she's obviously uncomfortable, and in turn I find it uncomfortable to just let her sit around in that state. I do acknowledge that my discomfort may be my motivating factor though.....

 

[Helenthereef]

But please, back to the topic - has anyone else seen anything like this ?

 

[Metachrosis]

In our case the swelling was much less severe when our baby was
found deceased.There had to have been an internal rupture to relieve
the pressure causing the swelling in the animals lower intestinal area
which no doubt shut the animal down.

 

[Metachrosis]

Snakes(reptiles) do not have evolved pain receptors,nothing in the wild
has caused the need for such physical attributes throughout out evolution.
They have no "pull away response",otherwise they wouldn't set and cook
on heat rocks and allow rodents to literally eat them as history has shown.(3rd and 4th degree burns are well documented)
Anthropomorphic is a word many do need to understand when dealing with reptiles(Thanks for dropping the word reference)

I'd argue that every animal has some form of registerable "pain" - it is, after all, the stimulus that makes a body move away from harm, and as such is something that is basic to all animal life. Even an amoeba will move away from something that is trying to eat it.

I accept that we do over anthromorphosise (sp?) animals, but I would never accept they feel no pain.

In this case she's obviously uncomfortable, and in turn I find it uncomfortable to just let her sit around in that state. I do acknowledge that my discomfort may be my motivating factor though.....

 

[Helenthereef]

Yes, this is what I'm afraid of - at first I thought she was passing it, but while I was away it became much more obvious. I'm thinking it's not good news...

 

[Helenthereef]

Snakes(reptiles) do not have evolved pain receptors,.....
They have no "pull away response",otherwise they wouldn't set and cook
on heat rocks and allow rodents to literally eat them as history has shown.(3rd and 4th degree burns are well documented)[/B]
:

Yes that's interesting, but they do pull away if you are trying to remove stuck skin etc so I wonder whether they have pressure/pain but not heat receptors????

(Or whether heat doesn't conduct through scales until damage has been done. Cats have the same problem, with the outer layer of fur often singeing before the cat will move away....)

 

[Varanis]

I had one baby Panamanian that had what was referred to as a perforated bowel which turned septic, "basically it let digestive gasses into the body cavity" it was diagnosed as a birth defect and we just chalked it up as failure to survive. I am wondering if that one being the runt has some retained yolk which is causing the problem just a guess based on the location. It is often hard to treat babies even with vet care.

 

[Metachrosis]

Here is the animal mentioned,sorry for the pic(iPhone)quality
The dark area was never present during the initial swelling which lends to
the rupture theory.

 

[Helenthereef]

Thanks to both of you, it does sound an awful lot like an internal rupture of some form, and she was smaller (by about 1/3 body weight) from birth, so, as you say, it could be a yolk absorption issue. She seemed fine for 4 months, but I guess they have such a slow metabolism that it can take that long for a birth defect to take effect.

I think, from what you're saying, that I may try antibiotics. Her prognosis without any form of treatment doesn't seem good.

I don't see an obvious dark area - yet - but it may come later.

Thanks for helping me talk it out.

 

[Metachrosis]

Have you palpitated the area at all?
If it were a yolk issue the mass would(should) have a much firmer feel
to it then just soft and squishy.
Its my understanding yolk solidifies and causes an impaction
and can be felt under slight palpitation pressure.

 

[Helenthereef]

Have you palpitated the area at all?
If it were a yolk issue the mass would(should) have a much firmer feel
to it then just soft and squishy.
Its my understanding yolk solidifies and causes an impaction
and can be felt under slight palpitation pressure.

It's been really soft since I first saw it. I thought maybe gas or a very soft faecal mass at first, now thinking blood. I did try gently massaging it in case it was faecal matter I could move, but no change, and no change in position over the last 3 weeks. It's symmetrical on either side and under her, not on one side like the picture you put up.

I have had a snake with an impaction in the past (which did eventually move) and it's not like that at all. This is really mushy feeling.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

do you think there's a chance it could be a parasite load? I've seen WC young ATBs get balloon like swellings due to parasite bloom. I was trying to find a pic but haven't had luck. I do belelive it was normally closer to the vent however. Just throwing that out there...
good luck

 

[Helenthereef]

do you think there's a chance it could be a parasite load? I've seen WC young ATBs get balloon like swellings due to parasite bloom. I was trying to find a pic but haven't had luck. I do belelive it was normally closer to the vent however. Just throwing that out there...
good luck

I wouldn't have thought so - this is a captive born baby from a captive born father and a wild caught mother I've had for 2 years.

They are fed on wild caught geckos, which of course is always a risk, but they have all been frozen for at least a week before feeding, and no symptoms in the 2 siblings I keep her with.

if it is parasites I'm afraid she's doomed. I can get animal medications but they are for cats and dogs, and this is a 10gm snake....

 

[AbsoluteApril]

here is one of the photos I was thinking of, this one ended up having flukes and some secondary parasite,
http://amazon-alliance.com/forums/index.php?topic=1253.0

there were photos of some baby atbs with what looked like little balloons inside them but I haven't been able to track down those photos, it was a couple years ago that I saw it.


well I hope it's not parasite then

 

[Helenthereef]

Thanks April. The photo in that thread does look more like the shape of the swelling Corrigan has. It's a helpful discussion of symptoms and medications too.

I think I'll take her down to the cat and dog vet and see what she says. I wasn't going to bother when I thought it was probably a haemorrhage or hernia as this snake is far too small for surgery, but maybe we can try and scale down parasite medication.

As I said, at this point I don't see that it can hurt - I don think this is going away by itself.

Thanks again to all for the input.

 

[Snakesitter]

Good luck, Helen. Please let us now how it goes!