Inquiry Kevin Dunne Dragons Den

[rocklizard]

Hello,

I have posted this as an inquiry because I am new to the business of breeding crested geckos and also new to ordering animals on-line. I don't want to post someone as a 'bad guy' if what happened is considered SOP.

The situation: I contacted Mr. Dunne because I had seen that his reptiles were the sires/dams of many geckos that I admired. I e-mailed and explained to him that I was new on the scene and looking for creams, reds, lavenders and harleys. I also inquired about pictures of his stock. He asked that I call him on the phone as he did not like e-mail. He also said that he sold too fast to post pics. He did send me a picture of a stub-tailed red sub-adult female with her back to the camera.

I explained again over the phone what I was looking for and that I was hoping to start a line with geckos like I had seen on a high-end breeders site who listed him as one of their sources. I also sent him pictures of the kind of geckos I was looking for from that site as well as colors. He told me he had the red female, a salmon male and a cream male for sale that would meet my needs.

We agreed on a price and shipping and I paid. He shipped on the date expected and the animals arrived alive.

1st issue: he shipped across the Southern states during the current heat wave-at the time I didn't know enough to ask whether he was putting in a cold pack and he didn't. They did arrive alive but very stressed. I know shipping stresses them but the batch I received from up North the week before were eager to get out but still curious and friendly. These guys ranged from leaping out of the container and running like crazy around the room to listless and still. Now that they have been here a while I know this is not a reflection of their usual personalities.

2nd issue: the structure on these guys is poor. Particularly the female in the picture and the cream male-should I have asked for more pictures? Yes, and I have learned that painfully now. I posted a pic of the 'cream' on Pangea and was told firmly not to breed him.

3rd issue: They don't look anything like the pictures I sent him-and the 'cream' I've learned is actually a buckskin. There wasn't a harley in the bunch but I have to admit to accuracy on his part as the colors were technically salmon, red and cream.

4th issue: The reds arrived with significant shed on their toes. The females toes weren't as bad-a humid bath and a wet Q-tip took care of it in about 30 minutes. The male was terrible. I thought his toes were actually deformed. It took me an hour of working over all of his toes after the humid bath to remove all the dirt and shed.

I know that I am a newbie and as such am likely to make mistakes...that is why (I thought) I was contacting a reputable breeder to help guide me. I was very disappointed with the results. I don't know if this makes him a 'bad guy' or if I just had an unfortunate learning experience or caught him at a bad time or all of the above. Since then I have dealt with enough 'good guys' that I think what happened was probably wrong. Perhaps some others can guide me in this regard.

Thank you,

Lorna Redmond

 

[ajcrestedgeckos]

If you want more pics of an animal before purchasing then ask for more pics. There are enough crested breeders out there that will give you fully accurate pics that you can just avoid the ones that don't. There are breeders out there that do have time for their customers. If you agreed to a price leaving it up to his best judgement then I guess you are at his mercy.

Shipping is stressful to animals so nobody really knows whether it was the heat or the bumpy ride, but they made it there and it sounds like they are doing well now.

Being in the warm, humid box overnight is like a sauna and can get the geckos to start shedding. They may not have shed completely when you got them out in the morning which is why there was stuck shed left or they could have been shipped that way. I always make sure nothing gets shipped with stuck shed, but this isn't always the case.

I don't know this guy and I'm not saying anything good or bad about him, but it sounds like you made up your mind about him and won't be a return customer. Even though this isn't a bad guy thread it puts him in a negative light so I would go ahead and notify him about this thread.

 

[rocklizard]

Thanks for the reply

Ok-I will let him know.

As far as the price/pic issue-yes, I realize I was too trusting. I usually employ more of a caveat emptor attitude towards purchases, particularly on-line. That is another reason I didn't post this as a bad guy thread-I accept the responsibility for leaving myself open to this kind of thing. I'm just disappointed that it happened with this guy-I was hoping to establish a positive business relationship with him.

I am feeling like I won't do business with him again-another reason to post the inquiry and ask if this was normal and perhaps I was just reading the situation wrong.

 

[KelliH]

Please post photos.

 

[rocklizard]

Pictures

I have pics of the white/buckskin-his name is Limestone. I will have to take some of the other 2 this evening.

The first pic is through the cage with a flash. The second was in natural light-a close-up macro shot. I don't know if he is fired or unfired-he pretty much stays this color.

The last is through the cage at night.

 

[lauraleellbp]

Yes that's definitely a buckskin, not a cream.

Is this the company website? http://www.dragonsdenherp.com/htm2/cs_crested_eng.htm

If it is, I hate to say this, but I'd encourage you to keep a close eye on these geckos for signs of MBD, as baby food-based diets are extremely difficult to formulate properly to provide the correct nutrient balance. Clarks or Repashy's Crested Gecko Diet (commonly just called CGD) are what most contemporary Crested breeders feed as these are complete and properly balanced.

Here's a thread you might want to read:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109196&highlight=kevin+dunne

 

[rocklizard]

I'm afraid that is the guy. Will the signs show up after the fact? I am feeding them CGD.

 

[lauraleellbp]

I'm afraid that is the guy. Will the signs show up after the fact? I am feeding them CGD.

Yes, they can, but that's something you'd need to start a thread off of the BOI to discuss.

 

[EA7770]

I bought some cresties from Kevin many years ago and had no problems. He's been around at this point for a very long time and many of the high quality cresties currently on the market came from his bloodlines. I only had the one brief transaction with him and no real personal interaction otherwise. Other than that, I won't really comment too much. But, I will say that if you weren't satisfied, I would have thought it would be in everyone's best interest if you had contacted him and complained prior to posting this. It seems to me that it only would have been fair to give him an opportunity to make good on the deal. If you're not unhappy enough to be bothered to call the seller and complain, you probably shouldn't post about them in public. That's just my personal opinion and it goes for whether you're dealing with Kevin, or anyone else. On that note, I'm sorry that your early experiences in the hobby and with online herp buying have been soured. Please do keep in mind that there are many many good breeders/sellers out there.
Ethan
Riverside Reptiles
http://www.geckosunlimited.com/community

 

[geckos-by-pam]

I saw Kevin had an add on Kingsnake about two years ago I sent him an email he responded telling me to call him. I called and asked for more pictures and was told he looked like the picture he had posted. I made the decision to buy him and I'm so glad I did! He didn't look great when he arrived and I also felt a bit disappointed by his color. I never complained and just waited hoping he would color up and WOW has he ever! I've included a pic of the day he arrived and a current one. He also throws amazing babies. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with Kevin seeing mine was great.

Day he arrived

Current.... put on Sunglasses

 

[rocklizard]

I'm glad you had a positive experience, that is nice to hear. Perhaps my experience with him was unique and he was just having an off day.

I know he has been around awhile and that many high quality breeders list him as one of their sources. That is why I went to him in the first place and was willing to trust his opinion sight unseen.

I have e-mailed him and left 2 messages-nothing too serious, just 'hey can you contact me' type things looking for more info on this buckskin in case I was mistaken about it. He did not reply.

Then I turned to the forum-not to complain, but to list my experience and inquire about whether or not my expectations were normal or if I was looking for too much due to my inexperience. I figured I was setting myself up to be roasted a bit-but I still felt it was worth it to find out if I should pursue this matter further or just let it alone.

I don't believe I said my early experiences are soured. I believe I said that I have since dealt with many good sellers and this convinced me to question the earlier transaction and it's normalcy within the industry.

I hope to be able to write very positive reviews of the others I've dealt with in the near future.

Thank you for your opinion,

Lorna

I bought some cresties from Kevin many years ago and had no problems. He's been around at this point for a very long time and many of the high quality cresties currently on the market came from his bloodlines. I only had the one brief transaction with him and no real personal interaction otherwise. Other than that, I won't really comment too much. But, I will say that if you weren't satisfied, I would have thought it would be in everyone's best interest if you had contacted him and complained prior to posting this. It seems to me that it only would have been fair to give him an opportunity to make good on the deal. If you're not unhappy enough to be bothered to call the seller and complain, you probably shouldn't post about them in public. That's just my personal opinion and it goes for whether you're dealing with Kevin, or anyone else. On that note, I'm sorry that your early experiences in the hobby and with online herp buying have been soured. Please do keep in mind that there are many many good breeders/sellers out there.
Ethan
Riverside Reptiles
http://www.geckosunlimited.com/community

 

[KelliH]

The best red ciliatus I ever had (and I had quite a few) came from Kevin's bloodline.

 

[lauraleellbp]

Ooooh- Kevin Dunne breeds for Sandfire Dragon Ranch!

They're big suppliers for some of the big pet stores, I think PetCo among others?

 

[dragonluver83]

I had a transaction with kevin. It was my first one with him, as he had some sweet dragons. I had to get in on it. Unfortunately, it was my LAST transaction with him!

Everyone knows Kevin has some of the nicest blood dragons on the market. (that havent been crossed out, pure bloods.) I seen pics of the one, and I went on to purchase 4 bloods. (For those that dont know, back in the day dragon pictures were not posted. It was a "you get what you ask for". An you would get the correct linage. But sometimes NOT the color you were hoping for) Anyway. The problem was 2 out of the four died. One came in and looked pretty bad. Bones sticking out and skinny. the other one was dehydrated to the point that I believe the dragon died from that. Both died within a day or two of there arrival after already being sluggish.

Kevin was quick to respond and after shipping cost was sent, he sent me replacements. He was very polite and friendly. Didnt treat me like, "well what did you do to it" like some breeders will. The replacements came and one was good and sadly enough the female blood that I had high hopes for, was not. She had bloody loose stool. I couldnt stop thinking to myself "un-real". I was so upset, that I didnt call kevin. I GAVE the male away that was replaced. Now I had to treat a 9 inch baby dragon, for bloody lose stool. How does a baby get these kind of problems?

That was the last time I dealt with Kevin, and as good of a name he has. As much as he has done for dragons and gecko's. He is on my "do not buy from" and "do not refer" list. I think someone said it, there are plenty of other breeders out there who will take there time out for you.

 

[Focal]

I think you did right by posting this. Quality control should not be at the buyers expense. How hard is it to look at the animal before you ship it? This is even more of a SMH moment reading all the responses about how popular this guy is.

Please let me know if I got this right.

You received animals in poor condition.
You received the wrong morph.
Sellers communication has ceased.

Well, I think it's safe to assume a good guy thread isn't deserved. Sorry you had to go through this but I think you have learned a great deal from this transaction.

 

[dragonluver83]

I think you did right by posting this. Quality control should not be at the buyers expense. How hard is it to look at the animal before you ship it? This is even more of a SMH moment reading all the responses about how popular this guy is.

Please let me know if I got this right.

You received animals in poor condition.
You received the wrong morph.
Sellers communication has ceased.

Well, I think it's safe to assume a good guy thread isn't deserved. Sorry you had to go through this but I think you have learned a great deal from this transaction.

if he can charge quality price, why cant he send a quality animal.

I strongly agree with what he has done in the past doesnt mean that certain issues should be over looked.

Put this situation in a less reputable breeders hands. I think it would have been a bad guy thread. But given the reputation of the breeder some want to push it off. Should it be over looked?

 

[Keys & Kritterz]

It seems to me that it only would have been fair to give him an opportunity to make good on the deal. If you're not unhappy enough to be bothered to call the seller and complain, you probably shouldn't post about them in public. That's just my personal opinion
Ethan
Riverside Reptiles
http://www.geckosunlimited.com/community

Personally I look at as you have one shot to impress and make a good deal. Why give someone a second chance for disappointment? Most times the sellers want you to send them back (out of your pocket) or send money for shipping of the replacements, which is crap. I think if someone has a bad deal it should be public and not just swept under the rug. Yes i think the seller should of asked for more pictures but he's not the one at fault here. If you don't have the time for my questions or to provide me pictures of my investment then I'll go elsewhere. You can always find what your looking for.

 

[Paradox81]

I bought some cresteds from Kevin probably almost 10 years ago and I have to say, the pics he put online and what I got where nothing alike. I wanted a red pair and I got barley pink. Even when they where colored up, never got more then pink. I would never do business with him again but I know plenty of people who have and say hes great. This is just my opinion. I know plenty of people out there now that produce amazing cresteds so I stick with them.

 

[MAKEitSNOW]

I also had a transaction with Kevin that I was not very happy with. I paid top dollar for a white hypo (leucistic) female leather from him and another sunburst hypo leather male last year. I needed these specific morphs and sexes for 2 different projects.

The male who was larger arrived in pretty good shape but was very skittish and stressed even when I was just in the room feeding for several weeks. Then after around a month he developed this subcutaneous nodule on his elbow the size of a pencil eraser. I notified Kevin right away with pictures, he told me it looked normal to him and he didn't see a problem. So being very worried still I sent the pics to Tom Carke who I purchased some of my other dragons from, he said this was definately not normal... Being a vet tech I brought him in to work the next day and the vet did an aspirate, it appeared to be viscous joint fluid, I increased calcium via liquid drops and removed all the deco from the cage in an attempt to rest him. He has since made a full recovery but it would have been nice if the seller checked in on him or actually took a close look at my pretty decent photos... The only thing the vet could think of was he injured the elbow- this was possible as this dragon was so stressed he would run and hit the wall when you went to handle him or clean out the cage, this made healing slow as well... The stress I believe was the seller's fault but this happened in my care so I handled it on my own and asked the seller for nothing (not another animal, not a partial refund, nothing).

Next was the white hypo or "leucistic" leatherback female. She arrived under weight and took almost 6 weeks to fully acclimate and start eating really well. Also this was not a hatchling when it arrived, probably closer to 2-3 months and upon initial inspection I thought it was a male and talked to Kevin on the phone about it, but he convinced me it was the musculature of the tail and I believed him as I hadn't bred dragons since high school and was rusty on sexing little ones. Once she started filling out a little I noticed that SHE was definately a HE with 2 large hemipenes. I once again contacted Kevin this time with pictures of the hemipenes. He agreed he made a mistake but had no females to trade out or sell me. He then tried to sell me a "colorful leucistic" female non leather he had. I was looking for white leucistics not colored ones but was open to the idea until he told me the deal was $200 instead of $250 for all the trouble. In my mind this was not a good deal at all and I had spent the last 6wk growing out an animal that would not fit into my projects.

At this point I didn't even want any more animals from Kevin. I believe the 2 dragons I recieved were poorly socialized and underfed and this is why they took weeks to acclimate. I bought dragons from other sellers and their dragons where thriving right out of the box day 1. Under my care the leucy leather MALE from him has flourished and is one of my favorite dragons but it honestly wasn't worth the headache...

On another note I breed creamback cresties and that is a buckskin! Salmon, red and light brown would have been a more accurate description Sorry about your headache, and good job getting that shed off.

Jack Nelson

Sorry about your loss Tom and I agree with you both. If you are going to charge quality prices, sell quality animals and provide quality customer service...

 

[dragonluver83]

I bought some cresteds from Kevin probably almost 10 years ago and I have to say, the pics he put online and what I got where nothing alike. I wanted a red pair and I got barley pink. Even when they where colored up, never got more then pink. I would never do business with him again but I know plenty of people who have and say hes great. This is just my opinion. I know plenty of people out there now that produce amazing cresteds so I stick with them.

Even though its been some time, some things probably never change.

Can anyone check his pictures on kingsnake to see if there photo shopped? Just curious about why there are so many different problems about colors of animals in his possession and then never coloring up to the picture, when a customer has it? I know some animals need time. But is that going to be the excuse for multiple accusations?