Allowing scammers and thieves to stay on Fauna!

[Focal]

Ok, there seems to be a lot of off topic discussion about this in random BOI threads, and unfortunately, some of these geniuses have got themselves banned before they could clearly make their point. I think this would make for good discussion.

I believe it is a good decision to NOT ban scammers and thieves. Most of them are pretty stupid (keep this mind). They originally register under their real name, give someone their real address and maybe their real email and phone. Along the road, they leave cookie crumbs about details and lies that they often tangle themselves in down the road. If these people are banned, what do you think is going to happen?

NEW NAME, NEW ACCOUNT!

Then someone else pursues a sale, researches the buyer, clean BOI and then they get scammed! That scammer is banned and then guess what happens,

NEW NAME, NEW ACCOUNT!

I think they should be allowed to stay and burned and mocked for the garbage of a life they have created for themselves. Yes, someone else might get scammed but who would you rather it be:

A) Someone who researches the seller, realizes he or she is a Bad Guy and still purchases OR

B) The buyer that can't find anything negative on the seller because they are new and hiding under a false name?

I really hate to paint this out for any potential scammers out there that have a cookie for a brain, but I don't understand why others don't see it! Under rare circumstances, I can see banning someone, but not everyone that's ruled guilty by the BOI. I've seen some people come back years later and make things right with the buyer ... you think that would happen if they were banned.




I didn't put this in the feedback section because I don't feel admin needs to explain their actions.

 

[jmwboas]

Nick, I would agree! There is an old saying, Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. What better way to know what they are up to and currently doing, then by keeping them right here. Gives the customer a much better ability to HONESTLY see who to deal with and who not to. Good post as usual Nick.

 

[rodneynboalich]

i completely disagree that scammers should be allowed to stay on any site. i see your point about the new name and so on. but they need to be gone. the industry needs to stop tolerating it. its just as bad at the shows. you see the same vendors that sell half dead animals and they are allowed in because they paid for their table. keep in mind who usually gets scammed by these people. its usually new people to the hobby. people getting their some of there first animals are the ones that usually get burned. how many people jump into this hobby and jump right back out because of it. how many people would still be in the industry still buying animals and feeders and cages and so on generating capitol for the industry if they wouldnt have got ripped off so many times right from the start. just because a person can change their name and email and continue to rip people off dosnt mean we shouldnt do anything and just say well theyll just keep doing it so why bother trying to stop them. and what about people like big daddy that kept ripping people off for years. he never had to change his name or do anything because nothing was done to stop what he was doing. these people should at least get some resistance from the industry for there actions.

i know i sometimes bust the mods balls for stuff on here but i do realize it dose put them in a tough spot when it comes to banning people especially for reason involving animals sold. they could easily be accused of being bias or unfair if they ban some people and not others

i think the best way would be to ban those that have a very clear history of bad business practices.

 

[Lucille]

i think the best way would be to ban those that have a very clear history of bad business practices.

People here are banned because they break posted rules, not because of their business practices.

 

[radera5]

Ok, there seems to be a lot of off topic discussion about this in random BOI threads, and unfortunately, some of these geniuses have got themselves banned before they could clearly make their point. I think this would make for good discussion.

I believe it is a good decision to NOT ban scammers and thieves. Most of them are pretty stupid (keep this mind). They originally register under their real name, give someone their real address and maybe their real email and phone. Along the road, they leave cookie crumbs about details and lies that they often tangle themselves in down the road. If these people are banned, what do you think is going to happen?

NEW NAME, NEW ACCOUNT!

Then someone else pursues a sale, researches the buyer, clean BOI and then they get scammed! That scammer is banned and then guess what happens,

NEW NAME, NEW ACCOUNT!

I think they should be allowed to stay and burned and mocked for the garbage of a life they have created for themselves. Yes, someone else might get scammed but who would you rather it be:

A) Someone who researches the seller, realizes he or she is a Bad Guy and still purchases OR

B) The buyer that can't find anything negative on the seller because they are new and hiding under a false name?

I really hate to paint this out for any potential scammers out there that have a cookie for a brain, but I don't understand why others don't see it! Under rare circumstances, I can see banning someone, but not everyone that's ruled guilty by the BOI. I've seen some people come back years later and make things right with the buyer ... you think that would happen if they were banned.




I didn't put this in the feedback section because I don't feel admin needs to explain their actions.

I am confused? I didn't know anyone had been banned for scamming someone? I didn't think they got banned for business practices?

 

[radera5]

People here are banned because the break posted rules, not because of their business practices.

Refresh, refresh

 

[Focal]

Ok, I gotta break down your post, not to be rude, but so my post makes sense to me

i completely disagree that scammers should be allowed to stay on any site. i see your point about the new name and so on. but they need to be gone. the industry needs to stop tolerating it.

I think the industry creates it just as much as they try to stop it. Take you're next qoute below for example. Scammers scam for money. Not many other reasons I can think of. This is fueled by people that do not scam but have the same interests in mind, money. The guy mentioned below allows him because he brings money to the show. Raising our own bar individually seems like a better approach. We have a great circuit of people on here and choosing who you deal with is more important than doing away with those you choose not to.

iyou see the same vendors that sell half dead animals and they are allowed in because they paid for their table.

keep in mind who usually gets scammed by these people. its usually new people to the hobby. people getting their some of there first animals are the ones that usually get burned.

Yes, but there are so many other places and avenues for them to sell. That new guy COULD research this seller and say "well I'm not sure, I read that thread about you on fauna" and his rebuttal "oh they all hate me and that's why I am banned so I can't prove myself innocent." I've seen many people do everything possible to break every rule to get banned so they have a good reason to not explain themselves in the BOI. Perfect scapegoat.

how many people jump into this hobby and jump right back out because of it. how many people would still be in the industry still buying animals and feeders and cages and so on generating capitol for the industry if they wouldnt have got ripped off so many times right from the start.

I hate to sound snotty on this one, but they should do their research. If it's something that continues to happen to them, they are doing something wrong. I'm not trying to be mean, but banning scammers won't fix this issue. These same people will get scammed by the next "fly by night" scammer.

just because a person can change their name and email and continue to rip people off dosnt mean we shouldnt do anything and just say well theyll just keep doing it so why bother trying to stop them.

Some people work VERY VERY hard on here behind the scenes to catch these people and call them out. I mean VERY hard and put hours upon hours into making sure these people are well documented (when it doesn't even involve them). I've spent over 10-12 hours in a day STRAIGHT making sure someone was held accountable for what they did. Just because it took someone five minutes to read it, doesn't mean that's how long it took to give readers all the facts they need. All you can do is try and if people won't use the tools given, then that's on them.

i know i sometimes bust the mods balls for stuff on here but i do realize it dose put them in a tough spot when it comes to banning people especially for reason involving animals sold. they could easily be accused of being bias or unfair if they ban some people and not others

I think they would ban many people but you have to consider Blackstones Forumlation for that one:

"better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

i think the best way would be to ban those that have a very clear history of bad business practices

I agree to some extent. I wish there were some that were punished like sexual predators, never allowed to use the internet again, but I have made many wrong calls in the BOI before.

 

[Focal]

Thanks Jeff!!

 

[Lucille]

the industry needs to stop tolerating it..

The consumers need to do their homework and check out the BOI.

Nick has a good point. How many times in a heated BOI thread do you see people with 1 post, the one they are making at the moment. You know some of those have to be bad guys in disguise, why not just keep them where we can recognize them for the scumbags they are?

 

[rodneynboalich]

i realize that banning people for selling animals is hard. my point is that it shouldnt be over looked. and you sound worse than snotty to put the blame on the customer for getting scammed. in fact you sound like an a$$ hole. the customer shouldnt have to (especially to the point that is unfortunatly needed in our industry) investigate sellers before they make a purchase which has been brought about by you kinda mindset that is already entirely too prevalent within the hobby as is. through out societies across the world there is a accepted general practice for business which is a fair and just way business is supposed to be conducted and the scammers do not follow the rules. as for the scammers bringing money to he industry with the money they paid for their tables and memberships on classifieds it dose not negate nor overshadow the harmful impact they do to the industry with their practices. im sorry but a glib little quote proves nothing including your point. its the mods job to rule on such issues and i think they should and hold the people on their site to a higher level of scrutiny instead of wasnt their time giving me infractions for swearing.

your whole way of thinking is void of some simple cause and effect that the mods could easily hand down for immoral business dealing instead of waiting on karma to rear its mystic judicial head and righting all wrongs. its a fairytale way of thinking and thinking that people that are new to the hobby will know enough to go on the boi and sift through that mountain of $hit and extract the few diamonds of truth therein is even less likely.

 

[rodneynboalich]

let me ask a question. how many of you are breeders on here. how many of you loose sales because of scammers and yes i know that sounds selfish. but its true. if your a breeder and you loose money because some jerkoff is willing to under cut you on an animal and on top of that is lying about what the animal is this issue has my great consequences than you realize. it shifts the economics if the industry and throws off market prices set by supply and demand. scammers almost always sell for less then everyone else. so at the same time they are giving the hobby a bad name they are also devaluing the value of animals which as a breeder are your investments.

 

[rodneynboalich]

People here are banned because they break posted rules, not because of their business practices.

maybe not ripping people off needs to be one off the rules

 

[Lucille]

the customer shouldnt have to (especially to the point that is unfortunatly needed in our industry) investigate sellers before they make a purchase .

And we could put the customers in high chairs, and give them little terrycloth bibs.


Seriously, are you saying people need not take ANY responsibility for themselves and 'somebody' should make their lives all perfect with no risk?

An interesting and somewhat related thread:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283244

 

[deborahbroadus]

i realize that banning people for selling animals is hard. my point is that it shouldnt be over looked. and you sound worse than snotty to put the blame on the customer for getting scammed. in fact you sound like an xxx hole. the customer shouldnt have to (especially to the point that is unfortunatly needed in our industry) investigate sellers before they make a purchase which has been brought about by you kinda mindset that is already entirely too prevalent within the hobby as is. through out societies across the world there is a accepted general practice for business which is a fair and just way business is supposed to be conducted and the scammers do not follow the rules. as for the scammers bringing money to he industry with the money they paid for their tables and memberships on classifieds it dose not negate nor overshadow the harmful impact they do to the industry with their practices. im sorry but a glib little quote proves nothing including your point. its the mods job to rule on such issues and i think they should and hold the people on their site to a higher level of scrutiny instead of wasnt their time giving me infractions for swearing.

your whole way of thinking is void of some simple cause and effect that the mods could easily hand down for immoral business dealing instead of waiting on karma to rear its mystic judicial head and righting all wrongs. its a fairytale way of thinking and thinking that people that are new to the hobby will know enough to go on the boi and sift through that mountain of XXXX and extract the few diamonds of truth therein is even less likely.

The bolded was unnecessary. Nick took the time, patience and was SPOT ON explaining why the BGs shouldn't be banned. None of us are our neighbor's keeper to the extent that we can keep them from stumbling all the time. Each member is responsible for their own research and they have the capacity to ask a Mod for advice searching if necessary.

Those that don't know of the BOI soon learn.

 

[rodneynboalich]

nick im sorry but your rebuttal to to my post was nothing more than a slight reiteration of your original post. you really didnt say anything other than what you said before only with a few more words. if this is to be a useful debate we need to talk about the actual impact that the scumbags have on the industry. and the truth is that they have a very negative one. and with the internet the hobby has been bombarded with lairs like never before. we must recognize this problem if we want to move foreword. there are so many potential laws in the works that could crush this industry and its the good people that will have their financial world ruined. not the scammers. they will just move on to something else

 

[rodneynboalich]

The bolded was unnecessary. Nick took the time, patience and was SPOT ON explaining why the BGs shouldn't be banned. None of us are our neighbor's keeper to the extent that we can keep them from stumbling all the time. Each member is responsible for their own research and they have the capacity to ask a Mod for advice searching if necessary.

Those that don't know of the BOI soon learn.

what was he spot on about. letting people rip others off. or it being the new hobbyist own fault when they trust someone and get burnt. that isnt the kinda of world i want to live in and no one should just accept it. if you wish to argue my opinion than argue it dont just repeat your own

 

[rodneynboalich]

And we could put the customers in high chairs, and give them little terrycloth bibs.


Seriously, are you saying people need not take ANY responsibility for themselves and 'somebody' should make their lives all perfect with no risk?

An interesting and somewhat related thread:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283244

no im saying that the level of dishonest behavior that have become acceptable as the norm is a joke and when we have classifieds and mods a lot of it could be curbed. i love how people take a point they disagree with and make a grand exaggeration out of it. like saying i was imply someone should make their lives all perfecy with no risk, because clearly thats what i was saying. there a big long term for it but i can think of what it is

 

[jmwboas]

i completely disagree that scammers should be allowed to stay on any site. i see your point about the new name and so on. but they need to be gone. the industry needs to stop tolerating it. its just as bad at the shows. you see the same vendors that sell half dead animals and they are allowed in because they paid for their table. keep in mind who usually gets scammed by these people. its usually new people to the hobby. people getting their some of there first animals are the ones that usually get burned. how many people jump into this hobby and jump right back out because of it. how many people would still be in the industry still buying animals and feeders and cages and so on generating capitol for the industry if they wouldnt have got ripped off so many times right from the start. just because a person can change their name and email and continue to rip people off dosnt mean we shouldnt do anything and just say well theyll just keep doing it so why bother trying to stop them. and what about people like big daddy that kept ripping people off for years. he never had to change his name or do anything because nothing was done to stop what he was doing. these people should at least get some resistance from the industry for there actions.

i know i sometimes bust the mods balls for stuff on here but i do realize it dose put them in a tough spot when it comes to banning people especially for reason involving animals sold. they could easily be accused of being bias or unfair if they ban some people and not others

i think the best way would be to ban those that have a very clear history of bad business practices.

Rodney, Let me ask you this. If you go to buy a tv, you plan to spend some money on that tv right? Now you as the buyer of that tv will more than likely do some homework on that tv. For example brand, size, features, hd, any of that sort. If you go into a tv store and the salesman sells you a 46" Flat Panel Hd tv, yet you walk out the store with a 19" Sanyo, whose fault is that??

My point is this. If I am spending MY money on something that I do not know about, wouldn't I want to educate myself on what I am buying? If I don't anyone can take MY money. I am not saying that each and every case where someone gets scammed it's there fault. But they should atleast educate themselves.

 

[hhmoore]

Rodney, you've already pointed out that you disagree with some of the constraints on this site (regarding your ability to express yourself)...but I'm going to suggest that you put some effort into abiding by our rules. This is a privately owned site, and members are subject to the terms and conditions in place; so waving the Bill of Rights around to justify your freedom of speech/expression simply doesn't work.

As far as your stance that we should be weeding people out for various practices - this has been addressed many times over. First and foremost, we are not going to serve as judge and jury on such matters. What is brought to the BOI is often one sided; and, if it isn't, the two sides frequently give different accounts of what happened. You want people with no intimate knowledge of the situation to take one person's side, and remove another person from this site? How many times have we seen questionable, petty, or flat out fabricated complaints brought against a seller (or buyer)? How many BOI posts are essentially one hit wonders - in which a buyer comes in & blasts somebody over some slight (real or perceived), but leaves out the fact that they were fully compensated by the seller...or the buyer fails to come back and update when the situation has been resolved?
Besides, us taking the stance that we will remove anybody shown not to have acceptable business practices would lead to an expectation that anybody advertising here is safe to deal with. Sorry, but a seller's reputation is only as good as his last documented transaction. "Good Guys" can screw people over, "Bad Guys" can provide healthy animals and acceptable customer service....heck, known "Bad Guys" can make good on problems, turn over a new leaf, and become "Good Guys" - it's happened. What are we to do in that case? What would be the process for reinstating somebody? Does making good on a particular transaction mean that the person won't screw up again? By the same token, does a person with an extensive (positive) history deserve to be banned because he feels an issue is not his fault & refuses to yield to the demands of a customer?


As far as the undercutting, sure, SOME scammers use the too good to be true pricing; but not all of them. If you want to talk about the economics and market pricing, there is a thread in the BP forum that includes a few "articles" by Colin Weaver (it should be required reading, lol). http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278912

 

[Focal]

and you sound worse than snotty to put the blame on the customer for getting scammed. in fact you sound like an a$$ hole.

I'm going to save the retalitory remarks because you're way too easy. Glad you kept this a civil conversation! BTW, don't you have your own bad guy thread?

and you sound worse than snotty to put the blame on the customer for getting scammed. in fact you sound like an a$$ hole. the customer shouldnt have to (especially to the point that is unfortunatly needed in our industry) investigate sellers before they make a purchase which has been brought about by you kinda mindset that is already entirely too prevalent within the hobby as is.

You said the same person keeps getting scammed over and over. It's their fault!!! I can find 100 people on here that I KNOW would never scam me. He's a scammer magnet for being cheap, you said it yourself:

scammers almost always sell for less then everyone else. so at the same time they are giving the hobby a bad name they are also devaluing the value of animals which as a breeder are your investments.

im sorry but a glib little quote proves nothing including your point.

I'm still trying to decipher yours

through out societies across the world there is a accepted general practice for business which is a fair and just way business is supposed to be conducted and the scammers do not follow the rules.

Ok you're starting to get it ...

its the mods job to rule on such issues and i think they should and hold the people on their site to a higher level of scrutiny instead of wasnt their time giving me infractions for swearing..

... AND YOU LOST IT!

Maybe, since they can't ban scammers, they can watch them like a hawk and give them infractions for breaking rules until they are banned

its a fairytale way of thinking and thinking that people that are new to the hobby will know enough to go on the boi and sift through that mountain of $hit and extract the few diamonds of truth therein is even less likely.

You probably will not see this, but you JUST proved my point.

They always find the BOI when something goes wrong, but never beforehand.

...to go on the boi and sift through that mountain of $hit...

You can leave this question unanswered, as I am sure you will, but how did you find the link to this thread? It wasn't immediately following that long, off topic rant in a random BOI thread that you posted in, was it? You know, that "S**T" you speak of