Births and Deaths - the bad news - warning, dead neonates pics

[Helenthereef]

So the bad news on my latest Fiji boa Candoia bibroni bibroni babies: out of a batch of 21 snakes and 2 slugs, I only have 3 survivors to date (6 days since birth now).

She probably gave birth overnight - I woke up in the morning to an awful mess, most of whom had not even managed to get out of their birth sacs even though they seemed to be fully developed. Some had got part way out but died, others were still weakly alive, and moved when I got the membrane off them, but died within the hour.

7 seemed lively, but many still had their umbilica and placental mass attached, and 4 of them died within 2 hours.

3 remain and seem fine, (including one who still had his placenta attached until I tied it off and cut it on the second day). I'm keeping them in VERY wet conditions and will wait another week before attempting to feed them.

This is her second litter for me - 2 years ago she birthed 13 live young and 2 slugs. All babies seemed fine but started to regurgitate and die around 5 - 6 months old. I may have kept them under inadequately humid conditions at the start, hence the wet tank for these guys.

So little is known about breeding C. bibroni bibroni, which is why I post my experiences. Any helpful comments or suggestions really appreciated.

I'm posting dead neonate pics next - don't go there if you find these things upsetting.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Helenthereef]

WARNING Dead neonate pics

So here are the ones who didn't make it - some still completely enclosed in their birth sac, some partially out with still attached umbilical cords and placentas, some seemed fine but died anyway.

If anything strikes you as a possible cause of death, I'd be grateful for your input.

 

[snowgyre]

Wow, I'm so sorry. Sounds like they've been a really challenging species for folks. Hopefully somebody will be able to help you out. If these were pythons I'd say the neonates look a little underdeveloped. Premature birth? Maybe some of the boa folks on here will have some insight.

 

[Helenthereef]

Thanks Vanessa, I'm wondering if she dropped them a little early, though she was gravid for 9 months as per instructions o)

The other three look fine so far, my fingers are crossed for them.

 

[Snakesitter]

I'm so sorry to hear about the poor result. Hopefully the other three will prosper. Huge points for being brave enough to share the outcome and help others learn.

 

[Helenthereef]

Thanks Cliff, I learn a lot from these forums by sharing, just wish I had a reason to put to this one...

 

[allreptiles1966]

Very sorry to hear those results.

 

[Helenthereef]

Thanks Rich, it was a real shame, especially frustrating not to have reason to pin the deaths on...

The consolation is that the three survivors look pretty strong so far - going to try feeding them in a few days, so keep your fingers crossed for me!

 

[allreptiles1966]

Thanks Rich, it was a real shame, especially frustrating not to have reason to pin the deaths on...

The consolation is that the three survivors look pretty strong so far - going to try feeding them in a few days, so keep your fingers crossed for me!

I know just what you mean.

 

[Helenthereef]

Thanks for that, but maybe I need your toes crossed as well - I lost another one this morning. It was the most inactive of the three, staying mostly under a hide while the others were climbing around, and hadn't been tongue flicking. We noticed a funny bulge under its throat 2 days ago... and today it was dead in a tight coil. Obviously something major wrong somewhere...

But the other 2 are lively and tongue-flicking like mad so still hoping....

 

[Snakesitter]

Fingers still crossed for you!!!!

 

[jimoo]

Wow, I'm sorry.

I have to be honest, I live my Candoia, but I'm honestly ready to get out of them and move onto something where I might have some success.

 

[allreptiles1966]

Thanks for that, but maybe I need your toes crossed as well - I lost another one this morning. It was the most inactive of the three, staying mostly under a hide while the others were climbing around, and hadn't been tongue flicking. We noticed a funny bulge under its throat 2 days ago... and today it was dead in a tight coil. Obviously something major wrong somewhere...

But the other 2 are lively and tongue-flicking like mad so still hoping....

I am so sorry to here of another loss. I will try to cross my toes also.
I hope these 2 are strong and make it.
Have they eaten yet Helen ?

Question? The bulge in the throat,do you know what it was ? I took a corn snake in that was 5' from a friend about 4 years ago and it had a swollen throat also and died shortly after.

 

[Helenthereef]

Wow, I'm sorry.

I have to be honest, I live my Candoia, but I'm honestly ready to get out of them and move onto something where I might have some success.

Sorry to hear that, but I too am ready to stop breeding and just enjoy my Candoia as pets. I know other people are breeding them successfully, but I certainly am not one of them. What are you keeping?

 

[Helenthereef]

I am so sorry to here of another loss. I will try to cross my toes also.
I hope these 2 are strong and make it.
Have they eaten yet Helen ?

Question? The bulge in the throat,do you know what it was ? I took a corn snake in that was 5' from a friend about 4 years ago and it had a swollen throat also and died shortly after.

Lost another one 2 days after the first, was weak one morning and I found it dead about 6 hours later. Almost seemed neurological - just was kind of floppy and seemed to lose its tail curling ability, then... dead...

I don't know what the throat lump was - that one never tongue flicked, we didn't notice a lump at first, just the last 2 days or so, so I'm thinking some kind of mouth infection or developmental abnormality.

The last one is fine so far, refused food on me 2 days ago am going to try again soon, although I'm feeling a bit.......

 

[allreptiles1966]

Lost another one 2 days after the first, was weak one morning and I found it dead about 6 hours later. Almost seemed neurological - just was kind of floppy and seemed to lose its tail curling ability, then... dead...

I don't know what the throat lump was - that one never tongue flicked, we didn't notice a lump at first, just the last 2 days or so, so I'm thinking some kind of mouth infection or developmental abnormality.

The last one is fine so far, refused food on me 2 days ago am going to try again soon, although I'm feeling a bit.......

That has to be heart wrenching Helen. I do know that feeling and its not good.
I dont want to wish you any more luck since its not working. But you know i hope it hangs on and gives you a full life of enjoyment.
I am so sorry that you are having such a problem with this species.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Damn, I'm sorry for your losses.

I recently picked il a Nicaraguan boa and was unaware that she had been with a male, she gave birth about a month after getting her. She had 3 stillborns & several slugs, her stillborns showed many characteristics that your babies do, the placenta was still very large. I am thinking your girl is giving birth too early. I'm pretty positive my girl "miscarried" due to stress.

Did she eat while gravid?

 

[Snakesitter]

:-( So sorry. Have you considered an autopsy on one of them, if only to help to help separate a birth defect from an illness?

 

[Helenthereef]

Thanks for the concern all, it's very much appreciated.

The last litter I had 2 years ago (same mother, different father) seemed healthy for 5 or 6 months, all eating and putting on weight, then suddenly (after most had been rehomed and I only had 3 left myself) refusing food, regurgitating, convulsing, death of all but 1 of 13.

Two neonates I got from a friend on another island did the same thing, seemed fine for the first 5 months then refusing food, regurgitating, convulsing, death.

A litter had by yet other friends' snakes on yet another different island, same thing after the first month. They released the last surviving third of the litter (this is a native species here) so we don't know survival rates.

I was ready for a similar story this time, and was trying out different conditions for the neonates (brand new tanks and furniture, much more humid), but these poor guys didn't even make it over the first weeks, and type of death is different. Not even fed once yet and no convulsions.

I agree that stress can cause premature birth, and I have been wondering if they were premature, although her pregnancy was the same length as 2 years ago, and the babies weighed and measured the same as all other neonates I have had. I don't think she was stressed - she's a very mellow snake, and had been alone in her own tank for over 6 months (this species is gravid for 9 months- it's been a long wait!)

She had fasted for a lot of that time, started accepting (very small) meals once every 2 weeks about 2 months before giving birth, and then refused food again for the final 2 weeks before she did give birth. She has started eating again now and is currently blue, getting ready to shed, so she seems fine (to my great relief - I don't like losing the babies but I'd hate to lose her )

I don't have anyone here to do a necropsy - no specialist vets in Fiji - and I have already given the babies a garden burial. I did freeze some and preserve some in formalin last time, but I can't find anyone to look at them, and as I said, this time is different.

There is a possibility that this is normal in this species in the wild - often animals that have large litters or clutches do so because the expected survival rate is low- but I know there are people breeding them successfully in captivity, and to be honest I expected this to be easy - I am keeping a native species in native conditions, and I thought native vigour would carry us through, so I am doubly demoralised

Anyway, I'm going to try feeding the last one again tonight, you never know, maybe he'll be the token survivor of this batch, but I'm not naming him until he gets past the 6 months mark even so....

 

[Helenthereef]

The last baby just took his/her first meal!!!
A very tiny hatchling gecko, but it's a hopeful start.....