what happens to a pyro when you shake in a little kingcorn?

[diablohogs]

sociology? yes.

to question weather or not it is beneficial to cross gene pools can be answered with a semester of your time, a text book and a few bucks. kelli i don't even understand why you are here. you show up on the thread saying your ex used to hybridize snakes and you disapprove of the practice than next thing you know your thanking my partner for his civil justification for practicing the same thing. so you picked up your old copy of Golden Books Reptiles and Amphibians to define a few terms and now your an expert on hybridizing and why its bad?

please i would like to know. where is the crime? whats bad about hybridizing and please keep any supremist comments of yours off of snake discussions.

Seamus... such hatred. i'm not suprised at all by the 7 warnings you have aquired over time. i can see why you've chosen to focus your energy on insects. my question to you is why have you chosen to ignore my posts on the other thread. afraid i was making too much sense?

also what sort of valueble groundbreaking science have you guys discovered thru your purism?

that pyros crossed with pyros produce similar looking pyros? wow. gotta admit thats one for the books... i'm gonna call darwin on that one, he'll be mindblown.

anyway that's about all i have to say until of course the purists begin picking appart everything i said. but worry not. i'll be ready.

you know its too bad your breeding bugs seamus... with your purist beliefs i'd probably buy a snake from you to throw into one of my hybrid projects. maybe i can get some ants off you for my skinks. they like pure ants better.

chad elmore
http://www.diablosnakefarm.com

 

[KelliH]

My problem with hybrids is this:

A breeder crosses normal alterna with albino nelsoni. Produces hets, raises them up and breeds hets together. Out pop a few "albino greybands". This breeder sells a pair of these to someone else. This person raises the pair of albinos up, breeds them and produces more "albino greybands". Person posts ad on kingsnake.com for
AWESOME ALBINO GREYBANDED KINGSNAKES, MUST SEE!!!!
or something similar. Nowhere in his post does it call these snakes what they are, which is hybrids. Now granted many of us know there is no true albino alterna but many may not know this and think that they have one. If any herper ever catches an albino greybanded kingsnake he might as well keep it a secret because NO ONE WILL BELIEVE HIM.

That's pretty much why I am against the hybrid thing.

 

[Seamus Haley]

First off...

I'm not breeding bugs, read a bit closer there Sherlock.

Secondly, once again, grand and dramatic statements have been made that insinuate that some understanding of reptiles as a whole or these species in particular has been acchieved, yet...

No specific information has been given.

You say you learned about the properties of pigment and pattern... Well, WHAT did you learn about these properties?

You said you learned about universal attractiveness of pheremones in snakes... Again WHAT did you learn about these pheremones?

You state that you have learned a breeding response is stronger than a feed response... yet also say that, were anyone else to attempt this bastardization of species, they would fail... This represents a fundamental contradiction in your claim. Were the breeding response stronger overall as a matter of biology... Then anyone else attempting this would have equal success. You can logically make one contention or the other... probably be wrong as you have shown an astoundingly poor grasp of biology, but logically you could claim one of the above to be true... But the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

You state that you are learning that the snakes in question were much closer genetically than was previously thought... Please then oh fount of nevernding knowledge (With knowledge situationally defined as lies and misinformation) write up a new taxonomic structure for all of Colubridae as evidence of your newfound understanding.

Yes, you ARE learning that Seamus is irked by snakes with big eyes... that ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE BIG EYES this "bubble eye" that the animal on the left in the pictures is displaying is a defect... Understand? A condition that acts in some way to debilitate the animal by making them less fit... one that crops up often with intensely line bred snakes and more often than it should in these crimes against nature that are perpetuated by the ignorant.

any time you add new genes to an animal ( including humans) you are bettering it genetically by freshening the gene pool of that animal. you are in fact adding dominant genes that have been naturally selected over hundreds of thousands of years to a snake that would otherwise not have them.

The above is quite possibly one of the stupidest statements I have ever seen anyone make while pretending that they were serious about the nonsense they were spouting.

The dominant genes of each of the three involved pure species evolved independant of one another for a reason, had greater success fufilling their ecological niches separate from the genes of the other snakes involved and were kept separate by naturally isolating behavioral deviations. If this disgusting bug-eyed, ugly-ass mutant cross that you're so proud of were genetically superior and the snakes were inclined to breed on their own when under conditions where their instincts haven't been retarded to the point of non-existance... Then they would exist in nature... Except, the parent species involved don't live anywhere near one another and the areas where the ranges come the closest, these hybrids are never found.

Do you know WHY these hybrids are never found?

Because the very definition of the word "Species" denotes an interbreeding group of animals and they don't interbreed!

Seamus... such hatred. i'm not suprised at all by the 7 warnings you have aquired over time. i can see why you've chosen to focus your energy on insects. my question to you is why have you chosen to ignore my posts on the other thread. afraid i was making too much sense?

Quite frequently I choose speaking my mind over the use of tact, accepting the punishment in order to deliver a better point.

Like I'm about to do now for instance... You are an illiterate if you can't differentiate between the words "Seamus Haley" and the words "Gordon C. Snelling"

Incidentally, I read your response on the other thread, I did choose not to respond at that time and I'll explain why...

• You clearly hadn't read the actual thread you were responding to or the one it was linked to (Two threads ended up running parallel and were combined into one discussion).
• You clearly don't have even a basic understanding of biology.
• You clearly don't understand the fact that you don't understand biology... being ignorant even to the existance of your ignorance.
• Already I had seen the glimmers of these lies you have been spouting... Trying to wrap what you have done in the mantle of science, an attempt to confuse those who might not know better into believeing that you might know what you're doing... It sickens me. It really does act as nothing short of an insult to people who actually have made it their mission in life to further the understanding and knowledge of these animals to have ignorant sacks of... You... to be claiming some mastery over herpetology or evolutionary biology or taxonomy or genetics, especially when you refuse to actually provide any concrete information that you have gained from this disgusting display of greed and stupidity.

If it's science... Actual, reasonable research into the biology of the parent species, then please answer the following...

What hypothesis did you form before undertaking this experiment?

What steps did you take to ensure it wasn't a contaminated experiment?

What conclusion have you drawn about the genetics of the animals in question as it relates to taxonomic revision?

What conclusion have you drawn about the existance of isolating factors within the species natural behavioral patterns?

What conclusions have you drawn about the genetic dominance of pattern that you claim to have been studying in light of the offspring having clearly different patterns and markings?

Where's the rest of the clutch?

For the love of all that's good and right in this world, what kind of deranged sicko are you to think that those... things... pictured are better looking than the pure species that compose the background?

True, the last one doesn't address your claims of acting for the advancement of herpetological science, but it's a valid question to be certain.

And Rich... There are two older threads where we hashed out some of those definitions pretty thouroughly, through a few acts of consensus, about a half dozen or so of the more active fauna participants arrived at a point where an agreement was reached about the science involved if not the ethics. The species definition and some of the other slightly more technical issues take a while to type out, but they're there if a search is done.

 

[Gordon c. Snelling]

Ahh Seamus, Here I was banging out a response and you beat me to it. However I will certainly bow to your superior eloquence.

 

[Seamus Haley]

However I will certainly bow to your superior eloquence.

Eloquence nothin'.

I'm just long winded.

 

[KelliH]

Chad-

Whoa! You said:

kelli i don't even understand why you are here. you show up on the thread saying your ex used to hybridize snakes and you disapprove of the practice

Well, you are halfway correct, i do disapprove of the practice but if you go back and read what I wrote (don't forget to comprehend it also, please) was that my husband used to hybridize colubrids, not my ex.

Secondly, you stated:

next thing you know your thanking my partner for his civil justification for practicing the same thing.

Yes, I did thank your partner for his civil reply. Is that such a horrible crime, to be polite to someone? Oh, I guess it is for you since you are so damn rude! See Chad, i am a grown up, and I can have an interesting, thought stimulating discussion with someone about a topic we disagree on, and I can still be civil and polite! You should try it sometime!

Then you wrote:

so you picked up your old copy of Golden Books Reptiles and Amphibians to define a few terms and now your an expert on hybridizing and why its bad?

LOL, this is funny. I defined the terms of Genus, Species, Subspecies and intergrade as a reply to the post that was written right before mine, by the Webslave. He asked the following of us:

To start the ground work for a well rounded discussion, will someone please define the terms "species" and "genus" for me?

Did you not read the Webslave's post? Or perhaps you did read it but did not comprehend it. He asked for definitions, I gave them. Most people that are familiar with genetics don't need a "Golden Book of Reptiles" to define said terms, they apply to all living things after all!

As far as me being an expert on hybridizing, I am absolutely NOT and have no desire to be. I am simply expressing my opinion about the practice. As far as I know that's what a discussion forum is all about, correct?

please i would like to know. where is the crime? whats bad about hybridizing and please keep any supremist comments of yours off of snake discussions.

READ Chad and you will see I have already expressed why I feel that hybridizing is not a good thing. It's my personl preference, not a witch hunt. Play nice

 

[meretseger]

My rambling on the subject

Along with what Kelli was saying...
No one knows if there is such thing as a pure leucisitic black ratsnake or if they all are the results of a texas/black rat hybrid. Kenyan and Egyptian sand boas have been hybridized so much that the Egyptian pattern has been almost completely lost, and we can't import these snakes anymore.
And we also can't forget what happened to Indian pythons.
There are probably more examples.
Also, I personally enjoy my snakes because of all the adaptations they have to their specific natural environment. It's kind of like having a little piece of Egypt or Brazil or Ohio living in your house. I'll admit that I do a bit of morph breeding (ok, I'd LIKE to do a bit of morph breeding), but having a snake that's a product of three different species living across a continent from each other holds no appeal to me. I might as well just buy a dog. Oh wait, I have a dog. She sure is cute, but dumb as a box of rocks compared to a wolf, and wouldn't last 4 hours on her own. Guess those dominant genes really helped her out. She's kind of bug-eyed, too.
I'd just like to hope that there's more to this hobby than animals that look cool or unique, that people appreciate snakes for their snakeiness and not their colors or relative rarity in the hobby. They just should be pets more than status symbols.

Erin B.

P.S. Seamus' responses were a lot more restrained than I though they would be, especially given the amount of thinly veiled insults. I probably wouldn't have been as nice!

P.P.S. Yes, exactly what HAVE you learned? It's not like hybrids within the 'lampropeltid' (pantherophis, lamp, pit) group are rare or anything. People stopped being suprised that those snakes could interbreed years ago.

P.P.P.S. I thought I knew what a species was before I got into snakes. Oh well!

 

[diablohogs]

takin out the trash

you realize how many irrevalancies and assumptions are littered throughout your bullsh*t response, right? i'm sure you do. i'm supposed to sit here and type up the details of my observations to prove what exactly? that there was results?! oh i know you're still pist because i mixed you and your other cross burning friend up... sorry i clump all of the simpile minded people i come across into the same group because there is no real reason to distinguish you from one another.

So while none of your sharp (dripping wth sarcasm) observations really says anything other than the lie that i supposedely have no understanding of biology i will atempt to battle your long winded respose.

why are MY hybrids never found in nature? a mountain here, a river there... obviously because there are obstacles in the terrain that prevent them from breeding with one another or even meeting one another in nature. A mountain being in the way would be a good reason RIGHT? here let me spell it out for you... THEY COME FROM DIFFERENT PLACES!!! geddit? did it sink in that time? does this mean that thier incompatible and unable to produce viable young? obviously not. do they produce abominations of nature? no. the only thing that prevents you from liking these snakes is the fact that they were produced at the hands of man and not in nature. had someone found this snake somewhere you would probably wet yourself in astonishment from its vivid coloration and impressive pattern. but you will of course deny this seeing as how it was produced selectivey in the confines of a house.

what exactly are you saying about yourself with your're constant attacts on my charecter? that you possess this knowledge that you claim i don't. if i sicken you with my breeding practices than i've managed to accomplish something of value. maybe. on second thought, probably not. fortunately i get enough pleasure from what i do to where i really don't need you. FOR ME or AGAINST ME. lets go into what it is you do... what it is you know... and what it is you breed... clearly not much. what have you learned by NOT practicing hybridization???? well....?

what REASON is it that these dominant genes have evolved independent of each other? you said there was a reason. so what, a pyro or a corn snake couldn't survive in northern california where cal kings are found...or would they eventually become cal kings through natural selection seeing as its so accurate in its choosing the proper genes for its environment.

after you answer that question you can tell me how you've managed to recreate the habitational needs of these animals seeing as their genes were so selectivly picked.

wheres the rest of the clutch... what seeing three different examples wasn't enough for you??? insufficent data?

as far as my clear contradiction stated in my previous post. the fact that they do not eat each other doesn't mean that breeding them is easy! it makes it easier, granted and that is because thier insticts are still intact enough to provide the animal with the prethought that hey maybe thats a mate and not a meal. for you to constantly make ignorant statements about hybridization being easy is getting a little old considering you do not hybridize and probably never have. the reaction of the snakes when introduced varies from case to case but in most cases you will not get a feeding responce when introducing a corn snake to a kingsnake given the time of year and age of snakes.

i'm done with you for now. so go ahead wade in your pool of self rightousness and ignorance. i'll be back with more when i get a free minute or two. i've got abominations to create.

chad elmore
http://www.diablosnakefarm.com

 

[diablo snakefarm]

TELL IT ON THE MOUNTIAN!!!
I NEED TO HANG AROUND HERE MORE, NICELY PUT CHAD in the last part of youre statement you said that they tend not to eat each other I must add to this.
assuming they are of very similar size or the snake eater a little smaller and properly fed they tend not try to feed on the mate.though I have had couple cal kings that would try to swallow a cows tail if i let it ,and a thayeri swallow a mate or two.

if you are playing with pheromones you can decrease the feeding response even more

 

[meretseger]

Anyone who calls those that disagree with them 'simpleminded' is just turning their insult back on themselves. Please grow up enough to have a discussion about an issue without resorting to namecalling. Honestly...
It makes you look as if you have no facts to defend your position, and weakens your arguement.
If you keep all your hybrid offspring I really can't say I have a problem with that. Some people like ugly snakes. But the second you start selling them, the chain reaction begins...



Erin B.

 

[diablohogs]

funny you should say that.

i was civil until Seamus began with the name calling actually. read back at his posts. his posts directed to me are chock full of personal insults directed toward me.

we are trying to make F2 generation of the pyro king corn and might sell them once we see how variable the offspring are when line breed with similar parents.

i think its ridiculous to call these snakes ugly. they are actually wonderfully patterned snakes. but to each there own. i have enough ammo on why hybridizing is beneficial for species and how some species depend on hybridization for survival but i will open that can of worms later.

for the record we breed plenty of snakes that are not hybrids and have a vast knowledge of all of the species we deal with. just because we breed pyro king corns does not mean we don't breed pyro still. all of our hybrids are paired with careful consideration which is why pyro was added to the king corn in the first place. a nice long snake with a amazingly high band count added to a cal king corn snake hybrid. it came out wonderfully and if you guys don't like them...don't buy them. there are plenty of people that will... if we ever decide to sell them to the public.

we make no claims that these are our prize snakes. we have some of the nicest striped gray bands and western hognose i've seen and if you doubt it than visit our website. while you're there look at our honduran collection or the thayeris with the patternless belly.
http://www.diablosnakefarm.com

all of which are pure bred. a good portion of which are locale specific. we keep them seperate. hybridizing and breeding pure snakes. personally i'll take a nicely colored wild caught hognose over any hybrid we carry. but like i said opinions differ.

to tell someone what they're doing is not only easy but wrong and a crime against nature is extremely simple minded. i call them as i see them. read Seamus' long long long post where he refers to me as "a bag of... " and continues to insult my charecter simply based on the fact that he doesn't agree with something i do. NOW THATS SIMPLE MINDED!

i promise you... you will never accidentally buy one of our hybids. if you do buy one you'll know. BECAUSE THEY LOOK DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER SNAKE OUT THERE.

as far as being driven by greed... i can't help but laugh at that statement. if breeding hognose and gopher snakes is supposed to pay for a new lexus in my driveway than i'm doing it all wrong. i'd be better off selling indigos seeing as they go for about 700 to 1000 a piece. but no, i deal with snakes that i have a personal love for ( not to say i don't like indigos). Pyro king corns included. and if i never make a dime from it than i'll be ok. but it would be nice to see a return on all the money i've invested in snakes. and seeing as it is all done from the heart than you will never get a sick, kinked, misrepresented, non feeding, or starving snake from me. and if the fact that i also deal with hybrids makes you question my integrity than you too are also simple minded. try not to hate people because they honestly practice in a industry that has potential for corruption. thats called predjudice.

it sucks that people have used hybridization to back breed albinos into colombian redtails and nelson milks and what have you. but we do not back breed. we cross hybrids with other hybrids. and make no claims that these snakes are pure anything. if we were trying to be sneaky would we be announcing it on a popular forum... "hey look at these hybrids we have!!!"? once again i urge all you people who have attacked us for our practices to head on over to Diablo Snake Farm and see what we got. all of our so-called abominations are on a seperate page so can can avoid them all together if you want.

i'm done for now.

thanks
chad elmore
Diablo Snake Farm

 

[Seamus Haley]

i have enough ammo on why hybridizing is beneficial for species and how some species depend on hybridization for survival but i will open that can of worms later.

Why not open it now?

You refused or were unable to answer the pretty basic questions I had related to your "scientific research" with regards to this hybridization, which you personally used to justify the action...

I'm still waiting on it... What exactly was the experiment, what did you learn, what did you prove?

As a followup, since you still seem willing to make very vague comments that imply there is some positive ramification for hybridization... Open the can of worms please and tell me just which species depend on hybridization for survival and how it is benificial for captive populations.

Incidentally, claiming that there are rivers and mountains that break up the natural ranges of the species you have crossed is not an argument FOR the hybridization, it's an argument AGAINST it. They have evolved independantly to meet different climatic and environmental conditions, part of the ability to maintain a species in a healthy manner in captivity comes from an understanding of the natural evolution to meet the environment. By crossing animals from different environments, you are combining conflicting genes and creating an animal that is less able to be predicted and thus... less able to be cared for properly.

You also never told me what happened to the rest of the clutch, as you said, we've seen three individuals- Where are the rest?

read Seamus' long long long post where he refers to me as "a bag of... " and continues to insult my charecter simply based on the fact that he doesn't agree with something i do. NOW THATS SIMPLE MINDED!

Yet as simple as it was, you were unable to answer the few direct questions put forth within it. You can clear that up of course by detailing the "scientific research" that you were performing.

if breeding hognose and gopher snakes is supposed to pay for a new lexus in my driveway than i'm doing it all wrong. i'd be better off selling indigos seeing as they go for about 700 to 1000 a piece

That's simply a falsehood.

The way to turn a profit with breeding herps is not generally to go for those moderately high end species with the more difficult breeding, slower reproductive rates, legal issues and less general appeal.

The way to make money is to breed more common species that people will buy with greater frequency... You can sell literally hundreds of cornsnakes (non-abomination ones) at $10-50 each before you sell one snake for $1000+

Just more lies, eh Chad?

i promise you... you will never accidentally buy one of our hybids

It's really not an issue of more educated individuals buying one of your hybrids directly from you...

It's an issue of neophyte keepers who don't know any better buying animals from you and then producing mislabeled offspring. Or buying them from someone you sold them to who doesn't have your (sarcasm here) high moral standfards.

Care to answer the questions set forth in the previous posts and give us all some detailed understanding of just how hybrids are "good" and what scientific research you have been at the forefront of breaking into? It would go a long way to establishing credibility and, if you actually do have the information I'd like to hear, I'm recceptive to it. Skeptical but recceptive... Only your continuing refusal to back up the statements you made earlier leads me more and more to believe that they were simply lies, that you did no research and have no understanding of the biology involved and merely said that because you didn't think you would get caught.

 

[diablohogs]

this guy... i tell you.

okay i live in california where there are no legal issues with indigos. sure they are difficult to breed but either way they sell for up to $1000 so a clutch of say 10 could probably pay off the rest of my car and leave a little change in my pocket. hense my point, my self rightous assinine friend.

when i have time i will quote my Essentials of Modern Biology Book which will without a doubt point out the benefits of hybridizaton in the wild. Tell me, please how MY hybrids are less able to be cared for properly. i take care of my pyros, corns, and cal kings all the same way so why, pray tell, would it be a mystery to me how to take care of my hybrid of them.

for the record, some corns sell for more than $50. you're understanding of the market is questionable much like your knowledge of science as a whole.

you want me to sit here and lay out my whole operation for you? is that it? you want me to share any discoveries i made or any hypothesis i may have developed for this coming season? okay. sure. i'll throw you a bone...



1. i believe that in crossing the F2 generation of king corns that specific coloration and pattern will emerge showing dominant. such things as wavy bands and the checkered belly for example.

OR

i believe that much like the thayeri ( a snake that exists at the axis of 10 subspecies of lampropeltis)... if enough crossing takes place with other species of kingsnake... the offspring will come out extremely variable.

this may help to either prove or disprove that the thayeri is in fact a naturally occuring hybrid snake which is why they pump out variable offspring.

this is the only thing i will allow myself to share with you. i have many theories that i am in the process of better understanding. but i can't justify sharing them with you, cause frankly, i don't like you.

if you would like to see the rest of the clutch i can ask jerimiah to post pics of each snake from the clutch. the whole clutch. and then you can observe for yourself just how abominable they are.

i still don't see any credentials or any reason to believe you are even a snake breeder at all. probably just a guy with too much free time on his hands.

no one is going to buy a king corn believing its a 50 dollar snake. because they won't sell for that amount. they will sell for more.

do you know why indigos are hard to breed? because they are aggresive snake eatters. thats right seamus. indigos are hard to breed because they ( like cal kings and most other king snakes) EAT OTHER SNAKES making it difficult to breed them.

so with that in mind don't expect to see Pyro King Corns on the colubrid classifieds for $10-$50. if your new to snakes i suggest you do like i did. RESEARCH WHAT YOU ARE BUYING!!! its stupid not to.

if i missed anything... i'm sure you will point it out seeing as thats all you've ever done. its obviously all you're good for. arguing. filling your posts so full of fodder and nonscense that the few questions you do ask get lost in the reading of the rest of your pointless babble.

chad elmore

p.s. its rude to answer a question with another question.

p.s.s. why would anyone go to the hybrid forum to talk trash. you can't even address the questions i have asked. but than again with every new post you throw up i get less and less interested in bothering myself with you. i suggest that you lay out your questions in a more legible fashion. maybe number them for me. lets get a real debate going. and oh yeah.. i think you're kinda abusing the quote feature. half of the quotes you posted don't even really pertain to your response to them. good luck with that. i'll be hear holding the front. and jeremiah will be in the back with the canteen and the explosives for when you're ready to really open this up as a debate.

 

[Darin Chappell]

Personally, I see no point in attacking those who are against the hybridization of captive snakes by calling them "purists" in a pejorative manner. The reason so many people are against the hybridization of captives is because we may eventually have a difficult time getting animals which are free from the results of some people's "experiments." That's why the talk about selling these "creations" upsets so many people.

As to your assertions that hybridizations occur in the wild, I think we may be mixing our terminology a bit here. I know that there are naturally occurring intergrades (I agree with the idea that Kisatchie corns may well be an example of this), but I thought the whole concept of "species" is that natural cross breeding does NOT occur!?!? I have never seen a corn x eastern milksnake cross, except for those which were captively bred.

Do you two have any examples of naturally occurring hybrids? Not intergrades, but actual hybridization to support your claims??

Thanks in advance for your help on this --

 

[diablohogs]

truth be told...

i understand your point Darin. but by that i should be allowed to cross anything within a given species without upsetting "people against hybridization". but wouldn't that make it more difficult for me to find the locale specific snake i'm looking for?? these intergrades are what you should all be against. they are the less obvious mixes. the sneaky little buggers that you thought was a riverroad grayband but turned out to be a generic intergrade. take a riverroad gray band and cross it with a similar locality. now take the same riverroad grayband and cross it with a honduran. which one is more likely to be misrepresented as a riverroad grayband?? same with redtail boas. obvious hybrids like the ones we produce are unmistakeable even if backbred. how many generations of back breeding would it take before a Pyro King Corn started to look like one of its ancestors? how long before the cal king and corn snake washed out of it. we don't back breed but i'm saying in the hands of these hypothetical amature breeders. what 5 generations... maybe 6. and how many years would that take? figure about 2 years to account for growth to sexuall maturity. 2 years X 5 generations=10 years. so 10 years later you would have managed to maybe wash out most of the other species of snake. its a long time and a lot of work just to produce a pyro that obviously if your back breeding it to pyros you won't even need it. YOU'LL ALREADY HAVE SOME!!! i am defendng the products we provide. which are obvious hybrids. logically it would be redundant to try to create pyros from Pyro King Corns so why would even the most unexperianced breeder bother when they can just purchase a pair of pyros and create 100% pyro? we also sell our snakes in pairs and when the pyro king corn is ready to be put on the market people can buy them as such. they won't have to breed them with pyros. which we also sell.

thank you
chad elmore
http://www.diablosnakefarm.com

 

[diablohogs]

natural occuring hybrids

oh and as far as examples of natural occuring hybrids... no. not as of yet. but thats one of the things i would like to prove with my "experiments". that they do exist in nature, with overlapping locales.

well i'm gonna get back to work.

chad elmore
http://www.diablosnakefarm.com

 

[diablohogs]

i'll share one more theory...

if you take a nice look at the southern hognose of the species heterodon ( simius) it looks like a hybrid of a heterodon nasicus and heterodon platyrhinos ( eastern hognose). i have no proof as of yet but if i cross a eastern hognose with a western hognose it is my theory that i will produce something very similar in apperance ( if not the exact same thing) as a southern hognose.

this of course is merely a intergrade if proven true because they both reside within the same species of snake ( heterodon).

these are the sort of experiments that are preformed with the use of hybridization. the origin of a species or subspecies can be determined or disproven this way.

once again i will not put the neccessary time it would take to quote my biology book to backup the statements made in previous posts of this thread this time around but i will when i get enough free time to do so.

chad elmore
http://www.diablosnakefarm.com

 

[Seamus Haley]

Heterodon is the genus.

The second word, uncapitalized is the species. An additional uncapitalized word would be a subspecies.

Southern Hognoses are a separate and distinct species, not a subspecies, not an intergrade.

There are a number of terms you are using that you apparantly do not understand the meaning of... such as "Species" and "Intergrade" and "Hybrid" and "Locale Specific"

If you don't even understand basic taxonomy, how can you claim to be performing research of any value? If you're not performing research, then that removes your justification for your action and leaves you right back with "I want to produce something people will pay more money for and don't have the dedication to breed something difficult so I bastardize evolutionary uniqueness"

 

[Seamus Haley]

these are the sort of experiments that are preformed with the use of hybridization. the origin of a species or subspecies can be determined or disproven this way.

Incidentally... No they can't.

The ability to produce viable offspring is something that has some *slight* value in determining the deviation of the natural history of a species, but it most certainly does not prove conspecification. There are natural isolating mechanisms that keep species separate as species in the wild... Corns do not encounter Cal Kings, but they do encounter say... Eastern Kings. There are no verifiable reports of natural hybridization between the two species, this indicates that there are factors other than mere interfertility that come into play when determining species.

Behavior has a genetic basis with herps, when given identical stimulus (Truly identical) wild herps of the same species will react the same way with minimal deviation for genetic drift. It's only in captivity that you can pervert and distort and mutilate those instincts to produce your abominations.

 

[Gordon c. Snelling]

So very right Seamus.
All that would be proven with the hypothetical Heterodon cross is that you can perhaps produce something which LOOKS LIKE simius, it proves nothing more.
It all boils down to this, ego and the desire to make a buck off the uninformed consumer.