Still, how much are those non breeders worth Andrew?
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Posted 12/19/2024.
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Bad Guy Scammed by Andrew Michael Popp Las Vegas, NV
- Thread starter calebroad
- Start date
For what it's worth (6Gs) you can get a cheap little tape measure at your local dollar store.
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What does your attorney say? Does he agree with you? You did state you had an attorney?
Lynn Peterson
Big Time Reptiles
Respectfully I am to busy right now to look it up, but you are more than welcome to look up:
0.1 Adult Albino Red Eared Slider double het. Snow/Caramel
I don't want to miss quote or speculate, but I know I have looked in the past and much smaller ones where listed for more money.
Sorry, I missed that the first time. Do you have the messages leading up to those?
Too busy for that...
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Andrew,
Just my opinion, I would of taken my council's instructions.
Good Luck.....
Lynn Peterson
Big Time Reptiles
Thank you Lynn I appreciate your advice. I would have done just that if it hadn't been for people who stood up for me getting harassed.
The market bounces around some with these. I cannot speak for Andrew or others on this, but here is how I would put it for myself or if I was paying to put animals into the hands of a partner. If I were in the market to add new females to a caramel/snow project and had an express need (as opposed to being able to take my time and reduce my costs by starting with hatchlings; my usual practice), I would be willing to pay more than the list price was in this case for three female albinos het for caramel. I do not know whether the animals in question are or are not legitimate in terms of genetics because I am not privy to that directly, so I am not judging that part, but this is more to answer your question.
lol
In all seriousness, the current industry standard practice among knowledgeable chelonian keepers is measuring by scl (straight carapace length). Imagine placing a turtle's shell lengthwise between two bookends until contact is made, sliding the turtle out sideways, and then measuring the straight distance between the inner contact surfaces of the two bookends. That is what I mean. Sometimes interference by gular scutes needs to be subtracted for some species or individuals which have extra gular projection (can also vary with sex in some species). Some people are a little (or a lot) better or worse at taking these measurements.
Some people meaure the length of the plastron only (big PITA IMO). Some people have a tendency to take a curvilinear measurement of the carapace. Those people may mention this as "over the top" or something like that. Some do not not specify which way they measure. The trouble with curvilinear measurements is that they do not give good size reference for judgment. A higher-domed and shorter-lengthed individual can give a longer curvilinear measurement value than a lower-domed and longer-lengthed individual. For example, I was once sold an "18-inch" yellow foot tortoise by an individual that really, really should have (and probably did) know better. I expected that to be scl, but did not demand clarification. When I received the animal, it was 13" scl. His fault for the crappy measurement and mine for not clarifying before paying. Lesson learned. If Andrew is not a chelonian guy by history, I can see this kind of error arising. It does not excuse it, but it can explain it.
kingpinreptiles
New member
With as small as they are they are worth a couple hundred bucks each MAX, and good luck even getting that much these days on normal albinos. If they truly are het for caramel/snow they are worth a little more... But even then if Chris wanted some baby turtles to raise up himself he couldve bought baby albino het snows for less than $1000 each from a reputable breeder.
The price Chris paid for the 3 turtles would have only made sense if this was 2014.
You charge significantly more than "a couple hundred bucks each MAX" for animals smaller than these, Mike.
If these albinos involved in this deal are het for caramel (which I do not know), they are not babies, so the baby argument is not relevant to these turtles. They are not babies. They are not large adults.
kingpinreptiles
New member
Nick,
My most recent ad on albinos was at the most $600 shipped for a 3" female and $450 shipped for a 2". None sold at those prices. So you saying I charge significantly more than a couple hundred bucks for smaller turtles than these, doesnt make sense, that ad was taken down a week ago and isnt coming back.
Price on albinos has dropped down to $150 each. And thats for the size of albinos I was advertising recently, 3"... You can now get 3" albinos for $150 if you know the right people. To be worth more than that they have to have other genes in them. The thing is the albino slider market is so shot right now that regular albino sliders arent moving PERIOD. Adult breeders are available and not selling for less than $1000 each. Last year I sold a 6" Albino het Snow female for $5000 but only one person ever hit me up about that turtle, very much a lucky sale considering like I said, the babies are much cheaper. It used to be the turtles are worth more as they grow, but the albino slider market crashed and theres no demand right now. The comments on babies still apply, Chris could buy hatchlings and have them at this size in a year, and couldve saved at least $3000 and knew for a fact if they were het Snow. All I was trying to say.
You listed 2" albino females for $400 shipped and $500 shipped for 2.5" females on the seventh of this month, so it makes perfect sense. $400 shipped and $500 shipped are significantly higher prices than a value of "a couple hundred bucks each MAX" as you stated. Whether you got the money or not, you tried, and this was after the animals involved in this transaction were sold. I have moved albinos of two lines both well above and exactly at your current/recent value estimates in recent days (and they were all smaller). Lucky me, I know. These animals involved in this transaction are larger than the animals you listed in your ad on the seventh. Then there is the factor of the animals in this dispute supposedly being het for caramel.
The albino market crash is a shame, but the labeling of these as being het caramel makes for a different scenario if they are indeed hets.
I do not disagree about what could have been done with babies if willing to wait a year to bring them to size (because that is the way I tend to handle these things, too), but that is not an apples to apples comparison since it involves waiting a year. A small calf and a heifer just are not the same in the present despite their ability to equalize at some point in the future.
The albino market crash is a shame, but the labeling of these as being het caramel makes for a different scenario if they are indeed hets.
I do not disagree about what could have been done with babies if willing to wait a year to bring them to size (because that is the way I tend to handle these things, too), but that is not an apples to apples comparison since it involves waiting a year. A small calf and a heifer just are not the same in the present despite their ability to equalize at some point in the future.
calebroad
New member
Can we not forget that Andrew lied about the size (significantly) but then I found a post from July, that he eventually confirmed were the same turtles advertised as non-het. But he only admitted this after we did comparisons and found similarities to prove he is a liar. Then he reluctantly admitted "yes I lied".
Then he admitted to the lies, saying he was hard up for money. Then he refused his satisfaction guarantee. I tried to make due with the situation, but then Clive Longdon was able to say, with certainty these turtles are not het caramel snow. And, let me remind you, Andrew has refused to prove anything - because he can't prove anything, because he is a liar. Every time I turn around, a new fact surfaces about Andrew and his stupid crooked lies. It's not one lie, it's like ten lies. And just like any convict, Andrew Popp has some lame explanation for everything.
And now he is threatening me? Andrew Popp you are a low down dirty convicted felon, and justice is on its way. You keep running your little smack mouth. Justice is coming your way! I'm gonna put you on the stand in front of the judge and I'm gonna tear you apart.
Then he admitted to the lies, saying he was hard up for money. Then he refused his satisfaction guarantee. I tried to make due with the situation, but then Clive Longdon was able to say, with certainty these turtles are not het caramel snow. And, let me remind you, Andrew has refused to prove anything - because he can't prove anything, because he is a liar. Every time I turn around, a new fact surfaces about Andrew and his stupid crooked lies. It's not one lie, it's like ten lies. And just like any convict, Andrew Popp has some lame explanation for everything.
And now he is threatening me? Andrew Popp you are a low down dirty convicted felon, and justice is on its way. You keep running your little smack mouth. Justice is coming your way! I'm gonna put you on the stand in front of the judge and I'm gonna tear you apart.
It will help your argument if you show the evidence supporting that. However, I do understand that rushing to post that before any potential legal action is taken would not be wise, so it is reasonable to wait.
If Clive has a way to know that these particular turtles are not het caramel, that would be interesting to see, as it would mean he either knows their full chain of custody or has other evidence. I own het caramel animals that are kept with a partner that were produced from a female I once owned. If I sold them and the chain of custody became lost, they would still be het caramel (but would have to be bought at risk if changing hands again). I realize how uncomfortable that is.
If Clive has a way to know that these particular turtles are not het caramel, that would be interesting to see, as it would mean he either knows their full chain of custody or has other evidence. I own het caramel animals that are kept with a partner that were produced from a female I once owned. If I sold them and the chain of custody became lost, they would still be het caramel (but would have to be bought at risk if changing hands again). I realize how uncomfortable that is.
calebroad
New member
Nick - why would Andrew Popp not just tell us the history, tell us why he posted them in July as not het, where did they come from, why is his boss, who original owner the turtles remaining silent?
Why not just clear the air?
Let me take a wild guess okay - it's because he cannot prove the genetics because this is, and always has been a scam.
Asking me why he would or would not do any of those things seems useless.
calebroad
New member
That's true, we already know the answer. It's not just one thing, it's a big list of issues.
im taking him to task right here, as I prepare for tomorrow's meetings here in Vegas,
Answer me Andrew Popp? Stop beating around the bush and just lay it out for us?
Your getting sued, for a lot, and I'm trying to have you arrested.
Go ahead! Prove me wrong???
calebroad
New member
I understand that some people think there is strategic value to remaining quiet. And yes there is some strategy keep some evident under wraps.
But Andrew Popp already knows why he did, and how many crooked things he did. Absolutely! I could have accepted the size, but when all his other shady skeletons came charging at me, I changed my stance.
Just like, say any investigation, it may be put to rest, or let go, unless new evidence surfaces - and that's what keeps happening with good ole Andrew Popp.
He needs a lawyer, so he can skirmish around and tell his Tails. Probably the same tactics his prison cell mates taught him.
In my case, I want him on the stand! What strategy do I need. Should I prove your not honoring the satisfaction guarantee? The size? The weight? The Breeder ability? The het snow/caramel? The admitted lies?
On and on and on, take your pic your honor. Also, after I accepted the size, but before I discovered all his avalanche of fraud, he agreed by text message to refund in full.
So the argument I accepted size is null and void based on, more evidence surfaced of fraud, but also he agreed to refund, aftee that was said.
I mean, if this was not a scam, he would showing exactly where they came from and stop flunking out!
Chris, Bro, I don't understand. You got slammed and caught in a truck load of lies tonight and your like " oh yea, what about this?" Why doesn't any one ask you why you lied so much.
You said this guy said the turtles were XXX size but we saw tonight that the add said aprox. your the breeder, why didn't you verify the size? I mean come on bro.
Then you didn't tell us you excepted the turtles in writing after you got them and measured them. I mean once you look, measure and except them anyway. Its a done deal bro. This is still amer Yo!
Then you say over and over and over this dude admitted he so called scammed you. That is completely laughable. He had a written agreement, he has you excepting the product in writing after you received it. NO ONE BELIEVES YOU! Just stop dude. You cant say someone scammed you under those facts.
Oh, and you went on and on about how he said they were adult breeders but we saw and read the contract. It just said adult. You have lost all credibility bro.
Now instead of talking about all the lies you have been writing for the past week, you chose to challenge this guy to prove DNA. LMAO Just stop!
You call this dude a scammer, but bro, you got some sick ass turtles for a good deal, and if they prove out you gunna make a killing. He sold them cheap and you got dudes on this site that would buy them right now for the price you paid.
And no one believes you have and appointment with the DA. Your not that important. Sounds like you have a lot of friends on this site. I think some of them should be giving you better advice. The only thing your left with is to complain about the beans not growing the magic bean stock, but you entered into a contract to growth to prove it. Oh and bro, please stop saying the you have some form of proof that a test showed the aren't the magic beans. You committed to grow and prove. You only one of a million people that have entered into a Het deal. Trust sucks, we know, but dude, Grow up, accept responsibility and stop blasting this dude with accusations that you cant prove or your gunna be the one crying in the court room. And you brought your wife into it. What!!!? I'm just sayin and can I get an amen?
I drop the mic. Sorry Chris, your probly a cool dude but your trippin and nobody is telling you.