ReptileRefuge-stealing photos and Care Sheets

[ravensgait]

It does take a lot of work

time and effort to write a good care sheet and I hate to think of the time and sheer numbers of Photos taken just to get one really good one. Yeah if someone wants to use a care sheet someone wrote or a photo that some one else took they should ask before doing so. Yet we have all done it , downloaded pictures and care sheets and some have even shared their downloads with others. If your useing someones elses work and they ask you to remove it then take it down.

I just wish someone would hijack one of my care sheets!!! Ok it would probably help if I wrote one

It's just my opinion but I think some have over reacted here. I would like to think that most people would be pleased that someone thought their work was good enough to borrow. Should at the very least give credit to the responsable party though.

You can find the same care sheets or parts of them all over the net, people use them whole or in part with their own added thoughts all the time.

Randy Mackey

 

[RTBoas]

Lol

You people are just bad, you all should be ashamed of yourselves.

I read the whole thread, the guy is sorry.

Some people don't have alot of ed-u-ma-cation on the laws.

Give the guy a break, he made good, more than I can say for many other herpers I have read about.

 

[nicolai]

Here is my $.02

WHAT IS NOT PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT?
Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal copyright protection. These include among others:

Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of expression (for example, choreographic works that have not been notated or recorded, or improvisational speeches or performances that have not been written or recorded)

Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols or designs; mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring; mere listings of ingredients or contents

Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration

Works consisting entirely of information that is common property and containing no original authorship (for example: standard calendars, height and weight charts, tape measures and rulers, and lists or tables taken from public documents or other common sources)
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The above was copied from "http://www.copyright.gov/" the governments web page outlining copyright laws and stipulations.
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Being that care sheet are a process or procedure for people to use in the care of reptiles they may not fall under the copyright laws. The pics would since they are considered a art form and are covered as such. When you are explaining a method as to how to care for something whether it is published or non-published any and all procedudures fall under the laws stated above. I do not believe Care sheets are considered a literary work, art form, or dramatic work to be considered for copyright covered as "original works of authorship".

I am not a lawyer or legal expert by any means and this is just my interpetation as i understand it from reading up on the copyright laws for the last 4 hours. I have posted questions related to this on 2 seperate legal forums to get true legal opinion on this and will post the outcome as soon aas possible.

 

[Bringerofdoom]

I don't think Daniel Wedeking was in the wrong to make him link back to his site. If i was him i would be more re-assured there was a proper care sheet on that site. Rather than to force him to remove it, to only copy one from a 13 year old's sheet on a geocities page thats so badly off...

I have owned lots of websites, i have had my fair share of link stealers/file stealers and other things. I Realized in that time, that alot of those people are just plain lazy. They always want to make a real cool site with some content, but realized just how unskilled they were. They being as lazy and unskilled as they are, assume everyone else just copies there info from somewhere else as well. I learned to just not worry about it, the more time you spend on them is time that could be used for better things.

Out of the websites i ran, i had about 1,000 files available for download. Do you know how many people actually bothered to take the time to e-mail me to ask permission to link/host the file on thier sites? 5.
How many people stole and link my files? Too many to count, but its in the high hundreds. I wasted hours in e-mail battles with these people too.

So i dont blame daniel one bit, for seizing a free advertising spot on another reptile board. All it costed him was some info he freely gave away on his site. Atleast there is another reptile site out there with some correct information.

GRANTED, the website in question and its admins clearly started out on the wrong foot with it, But dan came to a resonable conclusion about what he should do. Thats not what everyone else did and would do in this situation, but its what he wanted to do.

 

[reptilebreeder]

Here we go again.
Nicolai, I see you have 450-549 brownie points, so apparently I am the only one on this whole site, who doesn't understand why you are always on the side of the thief, liar, bad guy. So what if it is not material that is copyrightable .

It boils down to people stealing other people's work even if these people didn't know if the stuff was copyrighted (pending your opinion) where do they get off taking it? It boils down to the loss of ethics. Look at all the polls lately that say a good majority of college students say it's okay to cheat. I didn't turn in any one else's homework and call it my own, because of my ethics. I would feel funny taking someone else's pictures, caresheets, whatever, and putting them on my website, not because it may or may not be legal, just cause it's not my work. I'm not talking about after finding out it is "wrong" to do it. If I did do it I would have certainly asked the author first, again not cause I didn't know it was illegal, but just as a common courtesy.

Look at all my posts, I think you will find in every one of the threads where I took a "side", the person turned out to be an outright self confessed liar, thief, even con artist, and/or all of the above, or at the very least someone with no sense of ethics or common courtesy who can claim "ignorance". Sure maybe one could say I was being too heavy handed, but I could argue that maybe I wouldn't "have" to be if you didn't give these bad guys so much stuff to quote when they post (see serpentboy78 thread, for examples)

At any rate I'm done, it's to hard to weed out these bad guys when I seem to always be on the opposite side of a good guy? No biggy, Wes has done an excellent job all on his own for a long time before I got here, and hopefully will continue to do so. I just hope I'm around to see some people get burned, by somebody who I may have possibly helped "flush out" from hiding.

 

[nicolai]

you again...

Here we go again.
Nicolai, I see you have 450-549 brownie points, so apparently I am the only one on this whole site, who doesn't understand why you are always on the side of the thief, liar, bad guy. So what if it is not material that is copyrightable . .

I am sick and tired of your crap, and your sarcasm, state your opinions on something without using sarcasm ("brownie points") and proving that you have to stoop to those levels to try to get a point accross.Are you that high and mighty that only "YOU" can say what you want and damn everyone elses veiw on something. Because I took the time "4 hours" to read (you do know what reading is dont you? outside the internet?) up on copyright laws and learn something and post it to get other people views on what i learned you say i am on the "bad guys side" again.Grow up and realize that intellegent people like to discuss things in order to learn from one another.

I just hope I'm around to see some people get burned, by somebody who I may have possibly helped "flush out" from hiding.

I for one hope your not, because all you do is complain about anybody that doesnt take your side on things. Atleast when Wes posts something he does it in a contructive form without trying to belittle someone like you are so fond of doing. He will take it to the "bad Guys" with sarcasm and insults and such but atleast he respects other people that have views different than his own.
You might try and learn something from him or lucille or sasha or rich who stick to the relevant facts of situations and state thier personal opinions in order to help people without the use of your kind of banter.


I posted a leginamate view of what i read and I believe everyone here would agree that we need to know more about things around us. I also posted in the legal forum to get members views there as well. If you dont agree with my view of the copyright laws say so and why, otherwise shut up and kkep your smart ass remarks to yourself.


P.S. I see you have 150-249 brownie points of your own.

 

[DejaGirl]

Something to think about...

You should all be flattered at the fact someone is making use of your care sheets for a good purpose; that is to educate the public through this individual's medium of a forum.

This is also a forum, and I tend to believe the competition may play a factor in such thread. The intentions for the BOI, as stated in the rules are as follows:

"This forum is designed to serve the purpose of giving anyone interested in the buying and selling of herptile related merchandise the opportunity to inquire about, or find already existing information concerning a person or business with whom they are considering doing business with. This is NOT the place for flame wars of any kind."

I don't believe this person was selling the care sheets, in fact, he was making them available through his public forum. I myself would find it truly flattering to have my work available elsewhere, unfortunately this individual made the mistake of stating the work as his own and misrepresented its origin.

However, I do not see this thread serving a purpose to anyone but the start of a "flame war." If any of the "copyright owners" felt their work was stolen and abused, a notification to the owners would have been sufficient. This really is not serving a purpose whether I decide to conduct business with this person or not, it has nothing to do with what animals he is selling.

And finally, this is yet another living proof of how certain members of this forum enjoy their never-ending complaints about anything and everything. I may offend (most of) you by that, but I am self-aware of your expected replies with your usual negative comments when someone decides to disagree. I, for one, love a good debate. Unfortunately, I don't always have the time to continue. Therefore, the limelight should be handed over to those who threaten the hobby by ripping off and stealing from other unfortunate individuals.

 

[nicolai]

I agree...

And finally, this is yet another living proof of how certain members of this forum enjoy their never-ending complaints about anything and everything. I may offend (most of) you by that, but I am self-aware of your expected replies with your usual negative comments when someone decides to disagree. I, for one, love a good debate. Unfortunately, I don't always have the time to continue. .

I read this whole thread and saw multiple posts related to copyrights with no one posting any facts about the laws so i figured i would throw in my interpetation of the law ( along with the actual wording of the law) so the forum members would have a better understanding of what is is they are discussing.

I didnt mean too or want to get into any kind of flame war with anyone, i just want to see as many facts as possible posted so everyone can make a intellegent decision on the subject.

I hope you dont think that I was trying to "compete" with anybody. I would rather work with everybody to try and improve things in our mutual hobby.

 

[shrap]

I am a mod at The Reptile Rooms and I consider Axe and Cheri both to be friends and people that I know who have the best intentions at heart.

I agree completely that those care sheets should not have been used in the manner in which they were. While Robbie may not have claimed he wrote them, the way they were presented on his site sure implied that he did write them.

The care sheets were presented like this:

"Animal Care Sheet:

Animal info animal info animal info, blah blah blah, more animal info, yak yak yak, more animal info more animal info, yak yak yak.

Regards, Robbie"

That sure makes it appear as though Robbie authored the care sheets. At least if I would have went to his site I would have thought he authored them.

With that being said, I have to agree with the people who have said that the BOI was not the place for this. Like I said, I have the utmost respect for Cheri and Axe, consider them both friends and know that they had the best intentions at heart. I just don't agree with bringing it to the BOI.

Cheri and Axe, I apologize if this post upsets you but I have to stand by how I feel regardless of our friendship and me being a mod at your site. I hope this post does not change any of that.

 

[Wilomn]

I think that wetwilly and moldyp, along with falconboy, made some major mistakes.

I DO NOT think that wetwilly told the truth. I DO think that when he got caught lying he lied again. THAT is what bugged me. And of course moldyp did the same, going even further by actually saying he wrote some of them. Then falconboy came along and said that they didn't lie, they didn't know, they were sorry and that they didn't do anything wrong anyway. Whew, that's a lot of dancin' there boys.

The fact that caresheets get used without permission is not new news. Someone blatantly getting caught is. THAT is the problem.

They got caught and instead of just saying "oops, I didn't know I needed your permisson, is it ok if I use your caresheet if I link it back to you? We get a fair number of hits so maybe you'll get some business from it."

The only problem I have with anything in this thread is the lying.

Who lied?

Will they lie again?

Why did they lie instead of telling the truth?

Dan and Wendy did exactly what any smart business person would do and capitolized on opportunity. They are willing to give these guys another chance.

Frankly, I am inclined to give them another chance as well. While I do NOT think that wetwilly told us the truth I DO think he hand was smacked hard enough that he is VERY unlikely to do so again. moldyp and falconboy, well, we'll have to see about them but if I'm cutting one some slack in this little fiasco I may as well go WAYYYY out on the limb I'm on and give the same to the other two.

I don't think they're bad guys. Just guys that got caught lying. Guys that are used to being big fish in the little pond they live in all of a sudden thrown in here with the sharks and barracudas.

Them boys got all a'skeered.

Time to let time show what they learned. Or didn't learn.

 

[WetWired]

"Animal Care Sheet:

Animal info animal info animal info, blah blah blah, more animal info, yak yak yak, more animal info more animal info, yak yak yak.

Regards, Robbie"

- As I've already explained, that was my forum signature, which is present on every single one of my posts, not just the caresheets. They were not even part of the caresheet.

I DO NOT think that wetwilly told the truth. I DO think that when he got caught lying he lied again. THAT is what bugged me. And of course moldyp did the same, going even further by actually saying he wrote some of them. Then falconboy came along and said that they didn't lie, they didn't know, they were sorry and that they didn't do anything wrong anyway. Whew, that's a lot of dancin' there boys.

- I love it when you call me by name. It gives me wood, but what you "think" isn't the issue.

They got caught and instead of just saying "oops, I didn't know I needed your permisson, is it ok if I use your caresheet if I link it back to you? We get a fair number of hits so maybe you'll get some business from it."

- Scroll back a few pages, and review post number 89.



I've have appologized several times about this. And I assure you, lying never came into play on my part. I simply didn't know about the law, and a didn't think it would cause this big of a problem. Why is that so hard to believe? Why is it so hard to believe that I simply didn't see the "legal notice" on her website? Have you ever made a mistake? I did, and I admited to it. The only thing I'm fighting here is the speculation. Things have been said here that are not true, and I, just like anyone else on this forum, will defend myself.

The fact that I posted caresheets on my forums with permission from the writer is not in question. I've admited to it, and I've appologized for it. When confronted with it, I did exactly what they wanted me to do. After all, it is their work, not mine. I have been nothing but cooperative throughout this entire ordeal.

Yes, I did do something wrong, and I acknowledge that. I have since corrected the problem. However, I have not lied. Not once. If you can cut 'n paste a subsection of text that you think was a lie, I will provide you with an explaination.

Now, I may be way off here, but it seems to me like you're not "digging for the truth" at all. It sounds to me like you have no interest in this matter. All You've done from the beginning is flame, call names, and be an outright asshole, but I will entertain your questions and comments.

 

[Wilomn]

Call it a gut feeling willy. I think you lied. I think you lied more than once.

THAT is my ONLY issue with you and yours.

I concur, you have taken care of the caresheets you used WITHOUT, you wrote WITH again above, and done so in a manner that has pleased those who wrote the sheets. I'm done with the sheets now.

You sure seem to have your back hairs up over what I, someone whom you've never met or most likely heard of, thinks of you. Is that because you got caught lying or because when you didn't tell the truth I was on you for it?

If you let this go, and tell the truth from now on, you'll be fine. If you keep harping on it you may well wish you hadn't. Your reputation is the one geing questioned here and frankly, you're not doing much to help yourself.

 

[WebSlave]

OK, I read through most of this thread and agree with some comments that this is not an appropriate thread for the BOI. As such, I am moving it to the Web Watch forum, which is likely the better spot for it to reside in.

 

[shrap]

- As I've already explained, that was my forum signature, which is present on every single one of my posts, not just the caresheets. They were not even part of the caresheet.

All I am saying is that the way the care sheets were presented it implied that you wrote them. What would anyone think after reading a long, in depth care sheet and seeing "Regards Robbie" at the end of it?

Call it your sig all you want, but I think you know as well as I do what it implied and you did nothing to dispel the implications anywhere on your site.

You can play semantics all you want, try to word it in a way that looks less damaging, but I firmly believe you knew exactly what you were doing. Remeber, I was a user of your site at one time and know you and some your mods history with that site. So you can try to BS the people that don't know the history, but you can't BS me. I KNOW better, Robbie.

Like I already said, this had no place on the BOI anyway, IMHO. So just quit with the BS, learn a little word called integrity and let it go.

 

[WetWired]

Call it a gut feeling willy. I think you lied. I think you lied more than once.

I'm not interested in your "gut feeling". Nor am I interested in what you think. Gut feelings do not resolve to facts. The fact that you have a warning level of 88, mainly consisting of name calling and derogatory remarks to members of this forum does not help your case. As I said before, you're here for nothing but a flame war.

You sure seem to have your back hairs up over what I, someone whom you've never met or most likely heard of, thinks of you. Is that because you got caught lying or because when you didn't tell the truth I was on you for it?

I don't have my back hairs up about anything. I find your remarks more humorous than anything else.

If you let this go, and tell the truth from now on, you'll be fine. If you keep harping on it you may well wish you hadn't. Your reputation is the one geing questioned here and frankly, you're not doing much to help yourself.

Is that a threat? I sure hope so. Additionally, I've stated many times that I have not lied, and you have yet to show any relevant evidence otherwise. I've also stated that I do not give a damn about my reputation. People are going to believe that they want to believe, and there's nothing I can do to stop that. If someone doesn't like me, so be it. I assure you, I won't lose any sleep over it.

Call it your sig all you want, but I think you know as well as I do what it implied and you did nothing to dispel the implications anywhere on your site.

It is my signature, you moron. Why don't you go take a look for yourself?

You can play semantics all you want, try to word it in a way that looks less damaging, but I firmly believe you knew exactly what you were doing. Remeber, I was a user of your site at one time and know you and some your mods history with that site. So you can try to BS the people that don't know the history, but you can't BS me. I KNOW better, Robbie.

Is that so? I'd like to hear some of this said "history" you speak of. I'd like to hear what you think you know about me. C'mon, enlighten me.

Like I already said, this had no place on the BOI anyway, IMHO. So just quit with the BS, learn a little word called integrity and let it go.

I had let is go, dingus. Now, because YOU won't let it go, I'm forced to come back to defend myself. Maybe you should take some of your own advise.

 

[Moldypotat0]

All I am saying is that the way the care sheets were presented it implied that you wrote them. What would anyone think after reading a long, in depth care sheet and seeing "Regards Robbie" at the end of it?

Call it your sig all you want, but I think you know as well as I do what it implied and you did nothing to dispel the implications anywhere on your site.

You can play semantics all you want, try to word it in a way that looks less damaging, but I firmly believe you knew exactly what you were doing. Remeber, I was a user of your site at one time and know you and some your mods history with that site. So you can try to BS the people that don't know the history, but you can't BS me. I KNOW better, Robbie.

Like I already said, this had no place on the BOI anyway, IMHO. So just quit with the BS, learn a little word called integrity and let it go.

I for a fact know that Robbie did not imply to make it look like he wrote the care sheets in which he did not write. That is his signature for a fact. Also it has been since the start of the forum. he is not playing games and he is not lying. He has told me he did no write many things because he simply does not own them. But it would've been a good idea to credit the owners, if he knew the real owner.


History is history, shrap. People can change. For example, I was not the smartest person in the bunch. I still am not either. But I am much more mature about many things and much more intelligent than I was before. Now I don't know what happened between you and the other as I was not in reptilerefuge for probably a month or two including the worm. So I have no say in what happened or what didn't happen.

For your information, I have mailed reptletrader many times with long messages and I have yet to recieve a reply. I don't know if anyone else read the forum board when we were chatting but i did not change my sotry. If you still feel hostile towards me and think I really did change my story, feel free to post your questions, statements, and/or comments...

My personal thoughts on reptletrader are- respectable person but not the greatest reader, or proof reader at that. I mailed him once already before the multiple messages I have sent out. I stated my name I believe, or atleast he put it out as it was me in his message... He though I was Falcon as I can tell. He stated that wetwired had posted and moldypotato has also posted.......


I assure you that wetwired understand the laws of copyrights now and he will never do it again. I believe he has learned his lesson.

i don't know how much this will affect any thoughts upon us or the forum. it seems no matter what we say we are always explained to be larger jackasses than we were claimed to be before that.

I truly would like to stop this fighting but I simply cannot as it seems like this thread will never end. All I can really say now is that I apoligize for editing someone elses care sheet without their permission and I did not know it was copyrighted, anyone else's but wetwired's or a fellow members, or a care sheet that has no copyright. That is one reason i personally told wetwired- I will write my own care sheet. I knew few about copyright laws and did not want to get in trouble. I suppose he thought that I wrote it as I said I would write a new leo care sheet before that.


Like some said, admit you were wrong, wetwired did. Say you are sorry and mean it. I believe we all did. And lastly, MOVE ON!

 

[Moldypotat0]

I am wondering why my post was switched to be after wetwired's. I posted before him. He posted awhile after me. Something is going on.

 

[WetWired]

There was an error message on this forum a while ago. Something about the forum clock knocking posts "out of whack".

 

[WebSlave]

That is correct. This evening when the hard drives were removed from the flaky server and put into the new one (which a truly hope is not flaky as well), the server clock was off by about 3 hours. So any posts made during that time, before I could fix the clock, could show up earlier then ones posted before it. I made that fix as quickly as I could, but obviously not quick enough in some instances.

 

[paul buckley]

i work in a field where i deal with the clearing of rights constantly - for visuals and for words. granted, its late and i'm tired and my eyeballs have rolled into the back of my head a few times over this thread so maybe this was already mentioned - if so, ignore me...but stuff like this falls under the term of intellectual property.

there are many gray areas in intellectual property cases - they are not always so black and white, as this thread illustrates. but certainly, whoever created the work in question retains all rights to its distribution. but on the other side of the coin, the punishment (if necessary at all) should hopefully fit the severity of the offense.

-paul buckley