Red Flag On Matt Haase

[SableLynx]

I think this e-mail thread says it all. Remember to read from bottom to top on an e-mail. I did not change the thread at all so it is still topsy-turvy. The things that flagged for me were; 1) his hurry to move them. 2) 6-9 month old geckos that have already successfully produced. 3) His obvious lack of concern about genetics and general health.

Wow, people really do have tons of interest in geckos. I'm sorry but I don't, which is my reason for selling them this cheap, if I knew info like this I most likely would not be selling them anywhere close to 100. I do not have hatch info, only that they are 6-9 months old, no pics of parents, bred by a local pet shop, no idea of weights, pretty sure they are 3.3, 3 male 3 female, one pair recently successfully reproduced, no fecals. Just thought you were trying to close a deal by telling me what you'd pay, sorry about that.
Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: CHERYL GUISBERT <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, 24 May 2005 00:06:36 -0600
Subject: Re: Message about: 6 young leos CHEAP! (PICS)


Whoa, slow down buddy! What type payment meathods do you accept? Do you have the hatch info on these? Do you have pics of the parents if your the breeder. If not who was the breeder? What weights and genders are these little ones? Have they had fecals? If so when and by who? Thanks Cheryl

>From: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Message about: 6 young leos CHEAP! (PICS)
>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:31:03 -0400
>
> Fine, even though 120 is beyond cheap I need to get them moved out. >Shipping ups next day air to dillon 59725 is 45 dollars. Please send an >exact address so I can ship them out asap.
>Matt
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Sat, 21 May 2005 17:36:17 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Message about: 6 young leos CHEAP! (PICS)
>
>
>I would be willing to give you 100.oo for all 6. Qoute me shipping to 59725
>
>----------------------------------------------

 

[Rockford]

Hmmmm......

Not sure if this warrants a red flag post or not. Looks like the guy has some common Leos for cheap and he wants to move them out. Some folks don't know all the information you are requesting if they don't breed them. Unless he is a Leo breeder and has a microscope handy would someone really go throught the trouble to have fecals done on these animals? If he did it through a Vet then wouldn't he just be breaking even?

Bad post in my opinion.

bthacker

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Cheryl.... are you kidding??.... Here's a guy who has 6 (undisclosed variety) of Leo's for sale.... YOU MADE HIM A BONAFIDE OFFER OF $100 FOR ALL 6.... and then when he gets back to you saying ok, what's your address.... THEN you hit him with a multitude of questions???.... It's BUYERS like YOU I would be concerned about.... He did absolutely NOTHING wrong....
Ask your questions FIRST, and THEN make your offer, not the other way around??....
Again.... HE DID NOTHING WRONG, but YOU did!!....
I think you owe this guy an apology....

Neil

 

[SPJ]

It doesn't look like he did anything wrong.
He was giving you a price better than if you went to Petco for the leos.
I don't think there are any red flags.
He agreed to your offer and now you jump all over him.
People do take animals in on trade at times (I have) and sometimes don't have the full history on them.
I think you jumped the gun with this post.

 

[SableLynx]

I was fine with making the purchase. If you notice the first question I asked was on payment meathods he accepted. The other questions were, this would be nice to know if you have the info. You are right at the price not having that info would not have stopped me from buying. It would have just given me a place to start on my personal care for these Leos.

What stopped me and incited this post was the fact that he allowed Leos that were 6-9 months old to reproduce. Since it takes close to 2 months for eggs many times that means he allowed them to breed at 4-7 months. Now maybe you don't have a problem with that but I do and I do believe it warrants a red flag post.

 

[Chris@TSE]

It is obvious you are not dealing with a breeder. You are dealing with a hobbyist who purchased geckos from a local pet shop, most likely a shop that offered little to no information on them. He's selling them to move them on out, and he even stated he had no interest in them.

Your 'red flag' post is simply not needed... Looks as if you were waiting for the change to post such a thread and jumped on the wrong individual. An apology is in order..... If this was some type of self proclaimed breeder, I would agree with you. You simply made a mistake and took a shot at a entry level hobbyist. These types of things scare people away from the hobby, thanks for contributing......

 

[Chris@TSE]

chance*

excuse the typos, keep forgetting to use the spell check

 

[SPJ]

What stopped me and incited this post was the fact that he allowed Leos that were 6-9 months old to reproduce.

I don't see where he said HE had them reproduce. He just stated they reproduced recently. How do you know it wasn't the pet store he got them from that let them breed?

 

[David Reid]

Second useless thread today...

Come on people, get a life, you do not need to start unwarrented posts just to see yourself post. You made an inquirey, they answered your questions, do not see anything but a dead beat buyer myself.

Dave

 

[Xelda]

What stopped me and incited this post was the fact that he allowed Leos that were 6-9 months old to reproduce. Since it takes close to 2 months for eggs many times that means he allowed them to breed at 4-7 months. Now maybe you don't have a problem with that but I do and I do believe it warrants a red flag post.

Not that I agree with it, but I can name a few reputable breeders on here who breed their leopards at 8 months. I've had my own hatchlings reach breedable weight (60+ grams) in 5-6 months. And females can lay eggs as soon as two weeks after mating, not two months.

Sounds like a communication problem is all this was. He's probably just a herper who got the leopard geckos in a trade that included some other animals he wanted but he had to get them as a package deal, so now he's trying to sell off the leopard geckos because they're not his thing. It's a common practice in the trade. I think it's a shame, but despite the high end morphs and top name breeders, there is a limitless supply of plain leopard geckos that get tossed around like spare change--everyone carries some, but it doesn't amount to much for them. When you look at the big picture, the majority of herpers don't really know or care about leos. Cheryl, bless your heart for not being one of them.

 

[SableLynx]

Chris Johnson

Your 'red flag' post is simply not needed... Looks as if you were waiting for the change to post such a thread and jumped on the wrong individual.

No Chris I really have better things to do than lie in wait to ambush some poor soul who happens to respond to my purchase offer. I really believe that breeding Leos that are this young, exspecially when you have no clue how much they even weigh, is a "red flag". I did not say Matt was a bad guy. A red flag means "use caution" and I believe that if someone is allowing Leos to breed at these ages, be it deliberatly or through ignorance, then a red flag is in order.
David Reid

You made an inquirey, they answered your questions, do not see anything but a dead beat buyer myself.

Dave, I do not believe you have any justification for calling me a dead beat buyer. I was fully prepared to purchase these 6 Leos before I found out they had been allowed to breed at such an early age. I was actually surprised when his e-mail stated they had bred already. That very statement put on the skids in the transaction. I am not sure why caring about how the animals were cared for prior to my purchase makes me a bad buyer. If he had simply left out that statement and told me what type payment he preferred then I would have sent out payment by what ever meathod he preferred (as long as it wasn't cash of course) and purchased those Leos. It really is a great price for 6 Leos, I almost wish he would have never told me about the early breeding as I am looking to get some decent stock in for resale. By making that staement i no longer can consider buying them even at that great price. I will stand on my tag line. I will not purchase animals I believe have been mishandled.

I don't see where he said HE had them reproduce. He just stated they reproduced recently. How do you know it wasn't the pet store he got them from that let them breed?

I e-mailed him back for clarification as to who had bred, just to make sure I was understanind correctly. He stated they had bred in his care and he had thrown out the eggs as he was not interested in breeding. Would you like that e-mail attached as well?

Olivia Li

Sounds like a communication problem is all this was. He's probably just a herper who got the leopard geckos in a trade that included some other animals he wanted but he had to get them as a package deal, so now he's trying to sell off the leopard geckos because they're not his thing. It's a common practice in the trade. I think it's a shame, but despite the high end morphs and top name breeders, there is a limitless supply of plain leopard geckos that get tossed around like spare change--everyone carries some, but it doesn't amount to much for them. When you look at the big picture, the majority of herpers don't really know or care about leos. Cheryl, bless your heart for not being one of them.

Thanks Olivia. I am glad someone understands. I am not about to lower my moral standards because some people think it's okay to breed at such an early age. Admittedly Matt probably did not know anything about Leos. Maybe he should have found out just a little about them so they would not have bred. Ignorance has never been a good excuse and with the internet available to research anything, anytime, it is even less of an excuse these days.

Maybe I am hard about these things. I volunteer at my local humane society and see hundreds, thousands of animals that are neglected, abused, and allowed to breed because of ignorance. I will not allow my actions to condone it.

 

[MH Reptiles]

I truly do not appreciate this thread one bit, as I am the individual in the spotlight. In no way do I consider myself an experienced leopard gecko keeper, or even an interested one at that, as my focus is large constrictors. I clearly stated in the emails that I had no specific info on these animals, or even an interest in these animals as they were brought to me as part of a trade, nothing I can do about that. As for you saying I stated that I had willingly bred these animals while in my care is completely false information. If you would like, I can also enclose an email of me stating that I had no intention of them breeding, as I had no room for the geckos I was selling, let alone more hatchlings. If you would like to spread rumors on the internet of a "bad" Leo keeper and breeder, that is fine, as I know I do not plan of owning another Leo after these 6. But RED FLAGGING my entire name and reptile business is so unnecessary and ridiculous I couldn't believe my eyes. All that I am guilty of is trying to find these geckos a BETTER home which will actually treat them as a house pet, rather than a re-sale, and giving an outrageous price on them. I absolutely do not appreciate you trying to sabotage my name, and hope that the sensible people here can understand these emails better than the buyer. Most of the folks that have read this thread so far, understand my intentions and I hope the rest of you can do the same.
Matt

 

[Rockford]

Maybe I am hard about these things. I volunteer at my local humane society and see hundreds, thousands of animals that are neglected, abused, and allowed to breed because of ignorance. I will not allow my actions to condone it.

That's great and all but I don't think Matt deserves this post. You cannot compare apples to oranges with the above quote. THAT'S JUST SILLY!!!! If anything he did a good thing by throwing the eggs out. I am not a Leo breeder but I have a Hognose passing infertile eggs right now. Does that mean I bred her? Nope. So maybe these eggs he threw out were infact infertile eggs.

It really is a great price for 6 Leos, I almost wish he would have never told me about the early breeding as I am looking to get some decent stock in for resale.

I kind of would like to clear up this post......Do you screen all your potential buyers so that they don't breed your "resales" at an early age? Or do you raise them to breeding age then sell them once you feel it's okay for them to breed? If you aren't doing either of these things than I would have to say your actions are condoning the neglect, abuse and the allowing of breeding out of ignorance of Leos.

You are completely in the wrong coming here. If anything you should apologize to Matt. He definitely deserves an apology, rather than defending your atrocities.

bthacker

 

[KelliH]

I believe that if someone is allowing Leos to breed at these ages, be it deliberatly or through ignorance, then a red flag is in order.

I've bred 6-9 month old leos. So I suppose you can raise your red flag for me too.

I am amazed that you posted this on the BOI. The man was being honest with you. That does not deserve a bad guy post, or a "red flag" post, or whatever you choose to call it. Bad call, IMO Cheryl, sorry.

 

[SableLynx]

I truly do not appreciate this thread one bit, as I am the individual in the spotlight. In no way do I consider myself an experienced leopard gecko keeper, or even an interested one at that, as my focus is large constrictors. I clearly stated in the emails that I had no specific info on these animals, or even an interest in these animals as they were brought to me as part of a trade, nothing I can do about that. As for you saying I stated that I had willingly bred these animals while in my care is completely false information. If you would like, I can also enclose an email of me stating that I had no intention of them breeding, as I had no room for the geckos I was selling, let alone more hatchlings. If you would like to spread rumors on the internet of a "bad" Leo keeper and breeder, that is fine, as I know I do not plan of owning another Leo after these 6. But RED FLAGGING my entire name and reptile business is so unnecessary and ridiculous I couldn't believe my eyes. All that I am guilty of is trying to find these geckos a BETTER home which will actually treat them as a house pet, rather than a re-sale, and giving an outrageous price on them. I absolutely do not appreciate you trying to sabotage my name, and hope that the sensible people here can understand these emails better than the buyer. Most of the folks that have read this thread so far, understand my intentions and I hope the rest of you can do the same.
Matt

Matt, I believe I have already covered all this except that I did not accuse you of intentionally breeding them, I stated you allowed them to breed while in your care. I am not trying to sabotage your name, just put out the info I have. I do believe you were irresponsible with the Leos. I am the one that told you the post was here, remember? I do appoligize for titleing this post "Red Flag" as apparantly it is a much harsher title to many then I intended it to be.

That's great and all but I don't think Matt deserves this post. You cannot compare apples to oranges with the above quote. THAT'S JUST SILLY!!!! If anything he did a good thing by throwing the eggs out. I am not a Leo breeder but I have a Hognose passing infertile eggs right now. Does that mean I bred her? Nope.So maybe these eggs he threw out were infact infertile eggs.

I did what I felt was right to include informing Matt of my posting here. He stated they were fertile eggs.

I kind of would like to clear up this post......Do you screen all your potential buyers so that they don't breed your "resales" at an early age? Or do you raise them to breeding age then sell them once you feel it's okay for them to breed? If you aren't doing either of these things than I would have to say your actions are condoning the neglect, abuse and the allowing of breeding out of ignorance of Leos.

All my animals go out with a complete care sheet. I do ask if the buyer intends to breed as well. If they do then they are provided with additional care sheets and resources on breeding. Do I have the FBI run a background check, No, but I do insure I ask questions and inform potential pet owners of all the requirements for the animal they are looking at purchasing. I would bet few stores do this.

I simply put up a red flag, You are acting as If I stated that Matt did these things intentionally. I did not. I did not say Matt was a bad guy, I said he did not treat these Leos appropriately, he did not. I am letting potential buyers know what happened with these Leos. Matt is probably an Awesome snake man. I don't know, I do not have snakes at this time. I can quarantee you that before I do, I will have thouroughly researched the species I decide to carry. I believe that is the responsible thing to do. I believe Matt should have done so with the Leos. It is the responsible thing to do with any animal that comes under your care, whether it is your preferred species or not.

I have a Savannah monitor right now that I did not actually want. He is a rescue. Guess what? I spent several hours researching the care of Savannah monitors and obtaining all that I needed to care for him. Guess what else? I have had people offer to buy him because he looks cool. I turned them down because they had no idea what they were getting into with a monitor.



Kelli, I see that you stated you breed them at that age. I would swear I have seen advise from you to wait until they are a year or 55060 grams? I may have you mixed up with someone else but still I would bet you also monitor the weights and know they are ready to breed before breeding them.

I am truly sorry this has gotten so blown up. I do think it deserved to be pointed out. That is why I called it a "Red Flag" not a "Bad Guy" I will stand by my post as I intended it to be. I still believe Matt had a responsibility with the Leos in his care to research the care and housing of them and to act accordingly. I still believe breeding that early, especially when you have no clue on the weight would be irresponsible.

You are completely in the wrong coming here. If anything you should apologize to Matt. He definitely deserves an apology, rather than defending your atrocities.

In the interest of civility I will concede to this. Perhaps labeling the thread "red flag" was too much. As I explained before I believed it to just be a caution flag. Maybe I should have called it...Matt Haase, Breeding juvies??
Or maybe Matt Hasse, FYI.

I believe I was right in posting, but maybe the title was too much, So for that Matt I apologize, but not for posting that there is a problem.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

When I tell someone I will give you X amount, quote me how much for shipping? I have committed to buying.

I would be willing to give you 100.oo for all 6. Qoute me shipping to 59725

So he tells you

Fine, even though 120 is beyond cheap I need to get them moved out. >Shipping ups next day air to dillon 59725 is 45 dollars. Please send an exact address so I can ship them out asap.
Matt

Then you reply

Whoa, slow down buddy! What type payment meathods do you accept? Do you have the hatch info on these? Do you have pics of the parents if your the breeder. If not who was the breeder? What weights and genders are these little ones? Have they had fecals? If so when and by who? Thanks Cheryl

After that he was professional enough not to respond back as rude as Whoa, Slow down little lady!
Instead he gave you all the information you requested.

Wow, people really do have tons of interest in geckos. I'm sorry but I don't, which is my reason for selling them this cheap, if I knew info like this I most likely would not be selling them anywhere close to 100. I do not have hatch info, only that they are 6-9 months old, no pics of parents, bred by a local pet shop, no idea of weights, pretty sure they are 3.3, 3 male 3 female, one pair recently successfully reproduced, no fecals. Just thought you were trying to close a deal by telling me what you'd pay, sorry about that.
Matt


Was there anything further?

So, Matt did not misrepresent anything, steal anything or ship anything illegal.
He was not even rude.
If you want to debate the only concern you have about breeding do it in the forum.

Your stated "Red flags" His obvious lack of concern about genetics.

He told you right in the email you posted.What more do you want? He does not bred them. He told you where they came from and why he had them.

Matt, Nothing to worry about your business was not hurt by this thread. Welcome to the BOI and Fauna Classifieds

 

[SableLynx]

Okay I guess I will keep repeating myself. My problem was with the age at which they were bred. Matt never did tell me what payment meathods he accepted. I did not inquire if they had been bred. I would not have imagined that they were. Had Matt told me everything else in these e-mails, that he did not know squat about them, that they were bred at the local pet store, etc., that would have been fine. Even expected at the price. I would have purchased a money order or sent him a check immediately.

Many of you seem to believe I was wrong to post this on the BOI. I understood the BOI was for posting questionable behavior, not just bad transactions.

Again I apologize for the title "red flag" Maybe I should have called it. Raised eyebrows? Matt Haase.

I intended to call attention to the fact the Leos had been bred, not make Matt out to be some sort of firebreathing demon. It seems as if you all believe I wanted to "destroy Matt" or have a personal vendeta against him. This is not the case. I am very upset about the Leos being bred at that age and without even knowing the weight. I feel that it constitutes improper care.

Matt Hasse may very well be a superb snake man. I don't know, I just know that, in my opinion, he failed to research and care for these Leos properly. That is all I am saying he did. And you know what, that is what I believe he did. Nothing more, nothing less, Not necessarily intentional, but rather ignorance on Leo care.

Please do not put words in my mouth I did not say, nor read more into my statements than what I wrote. If you feel the need to attack me for posting here, well so be it, but please stick to the facts and leave the suppositions and maybes out of it.

I have already apologized for the term "Red Flag" as it seems to be much more negative to most of you responding than I intended. I really think based on your responses that "raised eyebrows" would have been more accurate. I still believe in the remainder of what I posted. Having an animal in your care and not researching on the proper care of that animal is irresponsible.

 

[PaulSage]

Insomnia is NO fun and the lights went off downstairs three hours ago... so I guess I'll offer my $.02

Cheryl, I respect the fact that you acknowledge that the "red flag" term was perhaps inappropriate, and I would agree. I can completely understand why Matt would be upset about his name being attached to a "red flag" post, but I think the fact that he has admitted that leos just aren't his specialty (or interest, for that matter) should buy him a little leniency given the fact that he did not misrepresent, steal or ship anything illegal like Dennis said. MANY people buy or trade reptiles for the sole purpose of turning a profit on them - this is business (known as PET STORES in some cases).

Instead of posting this concern on the BOI, I agree that it would have been better suited for the leo discussion since it appears that Matt's breeding ethics pertaining to leopard geckos is your main complaint. BUT since he acknowledges that he is not a leo enthusiast, I'm not sure if even THAT would be necessary. Accidental breedings happen. I've had corn snakes lay eggs before they have even reached a year old, even though I did nothing deliberate to instigate their reproduction.

Matt, I wouldn't worry about your reputation even though I know that is easier said than done when there is a thread titled such as this one about you. If it offers any reassurance, I've never judged someone by the title of ANY thread - I read the whole thing through first and then formulate my own opinion. I do not feel as though you did anything wrong or unethical.

Cheryl, you stated that you were not trying to sabotage Matt's name and you have admitted that the "red flag" phrase was harsher than necessary. To show future viewers of this thread that you are sincere in your vague apologies, it is my opinion that you raise your "white flag" and apologize publicly on this thread for the misjudgement. Then both of you can resume your positive contributions to the herp world.

 

[SableLynx]

Matt Haase please read

White Flag Being waved!!

I had no intention of hurting your reputation. As you can tell I have a great love of all animals and am majorly concerned when I believe them to be mistreated.

I stated my intentions for this post many times so will not do so again. Had I know that people would respond so vehemently to the term "Red Flag" I really would have titled the thread " Raised eyebrows". or "FYI"

I do not believe you to be an evil or a bad person. I am very sorry that you and others thought I did. I believe you are just someone that let an irresponsible thing happen. All of us have flubbed up one way or another at one time or another. Apparently my most recent was the title of this post.

I hope you can understand and possibly even respect my concern for the animals. I would expect being a snake man you might feel the same about your species.


Thanks Paul for pulling on my reins, I was definitely in defensive mode there.

 

[PaulSage]

Again I apologize for the title "red flag" Maybe I should have called it. Raised eyebrows? Matt Haase.

I intended to call attention to the fact the Leos had been bred, not make Matt out to be some sort of firebreathing demon. It seems as if you all believe I wanted to "destroy Matt" or have a personal vendeta against him. This is not the case. I am very upset about the Leos being bred at that age and without even knowing the weight. I feel that it constitutes improper care.
.

Very well. That's what happens when I'm in the middle of typing and the dog has to go pee. Perhaps Matt doesn't know every little detail about the leopard geckos that he is selling, but I don't think it is necessary to dwell on this fact. Cheryl, you may as well generalize your complaint against all pet stores too since many pet store employees know very little about the animals they are receiving from their suppliers (whom also may know very little about them). It would appear to me that Matt knew at least as much about the leos as the average pet store employee would - if not more. It would be rather utopian to expect ANY seller to know EVERY detail about the merchandise he or she is selling.
Good luck with your pet store by the way.