Not the snake you bought?

[Randy F]

Ok with some of the problems people have had lately with snakes having rat bites, or being delivered wrong, returned to sender and sold with no refund to you. So now I have one for you and you tell me what's fair from either side...

You buy a snake that suppose to be a certain gene that's not easy to tell. The seller swears that's what it is. You buy said male animal and grow it until it's breeder size. Let's just say its a Spector (as they are hard to tell for most). So you have multiple females you breed to it to in order to make super stripes. You realize that the snake is not a Spector. Now you sold the male breeder to replace it, you wasted multiple females making not what you wanted, and you paid a premium for a snake you did not need. So what's fair to make this situation right? Tell me from either stand point.....what would you expect to make it right or what would you offer for the mistake?

And just FYI, I gave two of my snakes away because I could not tell if they were spectors so it's not me

 

[Lucille]

I think that this incident is fact intensive, meaning that if you are asking for exact figures, more information is needed. Specific info is needed about events, how long the owner had had the snake, and how it was realized this was not a Spector, and when the owner should have realized it was not a Spector (for mitigation purposes) and what the seller proposed when notified.

I am thinking that such a situation belongs on the BOI so that information can be asked for especially if you are asking readers to propose a dollar amount offer in the way of compensation.

 

[Randy F]

Ok first off this is to get peoples views and not an exact dollar amount. There are no parties in this, it is for conversation. There are so many people now getting bad reviews on the boi, most are valid. We have seen "I received a snake with mites" and some thought a can of rid was pathetic, some said a new snake. We have seen bites, wrong sex, etc. I myself have received a snake that for whatever reason I did not sex and guess what? Yep down the road when it would not breed it turned out to be female not male. Who's fault is that? MINE! I never even told the guy. I have seen some think it's still the sellers fault and they should be compensated, and not just a dollar amount. Do you think the snake should just be replaced? Do you give any weight on the lost clutches? values have gone down, you have time and money into said animal, this one really makes people think, not just react. I think something like this is good to see how some react and think. People who know me know in the past I have brought up many topics to get people to actually talk (the ones who are not afraid) instead of just the usual 20 saying nice snake pic.

So for the sake of this lets say original price is $1500 and is now down to $750. Let's say four base females (with this a Spector we would assume yb, but in any other we will say pastel, spider, Mojave, vanilla, lesser, butter, etc.). I used Spector because I had a hard time telling mine so gave them to a good customer for free. You can use a pastel het clown and all het females if you like. Anything that would give you four clutches and not one of the supposed animal. Now this brings up another question.......let's say for the sake of argument it's bad odds, do you agree to breed another season, or run far away?

 

[ClarkT]

Tough call for me.

If I had spent $1500 on a male "X" gene, and it turned out not to be "X" gene, I'd be pretty miffed. Especially if I wasted a season with 4 females. Part of me thinks that I'd deserve a cash refund along with a few babies or something to make up for the lost clutches. Another part of me thinks that I'd need to take some of the blame for not looking into the gene more.

If I were the seller of this "X" gene, I'd want to make absolutely certain that the snake sold was indeed the "X" gene. IF it's that tough to discern, I'd lean towards doing what Randy did, and just give them away to a friend who would like to try to prove them -- with the idea that if they prove out, he pays me from the proceeds of a clutch for the then proven "x" gene.. Hope that makes sense.

I like this type of topic. It's nice to see opinions on it.

 

[Randy F]

I'd lean towards doing what Randy did, and just give them away to a friend who would like to try to prove them -- with the idea that if they prove out, he pays me from the proceeds of a clutch for the then proven "x" gene....

I actually told him to get them big and I would give him a male to breed to them. If they did not prove out then they along with 100% of the clutches were his. If they did prove out he got 50% of the clutches and I would take the two females back. I won't sell anything that I am not 100% sure about and willing to back. We all have seen hets that never prove out as much as 66% hets from people who don't even have hets of said morph

 

[ClarkT]

What if it's a gravel, or het highway? What if the price tag was $5000 or $7000? What would be equitable?
If I spent say $7k on a male het highway (gravel), [I don't know their going price, but just throwing it out there], and it turns out to be just a "high gold" or a lighter colored normal, what then?

Going through the scenario, let's say I purchased said gravel male and bred him to 4 yellowbellies for his first season. For numbers, let's say they each have 6 eggs. So that's 24 eggs. By the odds, it would be 6 highways. If I hit good odds, I'd get 8 or 9 of them. If less than good, then maybe 3 or 4. For sake of the argument, let's say I should expect 6 highways, 6 gravels, 6 yellowbellies, and 6 normals.

Then the wonderful day of pipping first arrives, only to find 50% yellowbellies and 50% normals. What is an equitable solution? If the value of highways is then $10,000 each, I was expecting a lot more than 12 yellowbellies, right? At this point, I've lost a season on it. If it were me, I'd expect a couple, if not a few, highways to make it up to me.

Now, if I'm the seller, and I thought for sure that it was a gravel that I sold, I'm not sure what would be equitable. It sure seems like it would be a big black eye on me if I do nothing. Or, if I only trade out the non-gravel for a proven gravel or something. I would think that it would only be right for me to give up a highway or 2 or 3, if I have them. Whatever the outcome, I'd want to make it right, and I'd want the customer to feel happy with the outcome. It sure would be a tough call.

 

[GMTIRRILL]

So I have no truck in this race because I don't own bp's but figured I would chime in here with outside perspective. there is a certain amount of greed that comes with gene buying when comes to bp's and boa morphs. Don't get me wrong I can understand it completely, but what I feel gets lost is genetics is still a crap shoot so you could be getting the genes you are wanting but during the breeding the genes are not fired so no visual is hatched and the buyer feels like he got screwed and then you get BOI for a bad seller on misrepresented animals.

 

[Randy F]

So I have no truck in this race because I don't own bp's but figured I would chime in here with outside perspective. there is a certain amount of greed that comes with gene buying when comes to bp's and boa morphs. Don't get me wrong I can understand it completely, but what I feel gets lost is genetics is still a crap shoot so you could be getting the genes you are wanting but during the breeding the genes are not fired so no visual is hatched and the buyer feels like he got screwed and then you get BOI for a bad seller on misrepresented animals.

That's why this thread is here. If you breed an animal to one female and get two eggs and don't get any that's bad luck. If you breed to ten females all producing 8 eggs that's 80 babies. If your breeding a four gene to a four gene and none of the 80 are a 8 gene animal, that's understandable. But when your talking a 50/50 odds with an animal here, how many babies are bad odds 3,6,9,20? This is another good spin on the original post.......when do you rule out bad odds?

 

[GMTIRRILL]

That's why this thread is here. If you breed an animal to one female and get two eggs and don't get any that's bad luck. If you breed to ten females all producing 8 eggs that's 80 babies. If your breeding a four gene to a four gene and none of the 80 are a 8 gene animal, that's understandable. But when your talking a 50/50 odds with an animal here, how many babies are bad odds 3,6,9,20? This is another good spin on the original post.......when do you rule out bad odds?

Honestly it is my believe you should never rule out bad odds Like in this breeding program since I have Green Tree Pythons I have 3 red neonates my hatch rate should be 100% red but due to the fact that yellow is in the gene pool means I have a 25% chance in any clutch for yellow neonates. it gets even worse when you are going into designers where you still have 50% chance that the animal will be completely green as an adult and not express the gene you were trying to breed. so at any rate if you add more clutches your over all success rate will eventually go down and the genes are there but not expressed.

 

[ClarkT]

GTPs are quite a different animal in this type of discussion. A specter, spark, or gravel is a specter, spark, or gravel. They will throw an average of 50% odds. Some may be better looking than others, but they will be close to 50%. The more babies produced, the closer one would see to 50%.

If 80 babies were produced, but only 10 showed the characteristic of the morph, then that's just crappy odds. It is, however, proof that the animal is gene "x". If, however, from 80 babies, there are 0 of the gene "x", then I would call that proof that the animal was sold incorrectly.

As far as greed goes, I would call it investment, not greed. That's the whole point that someone would invest into an expensive ball python such as a gravel.

 

[dumje]

50% odds should be no more than 2 clutches...your gonna see it...if your breeding to several animals and don't see it...odds are you got screwed...

I would at a minimum insist on an adult version of what I purchased...I would also like to add...I would never get caught up with something like this...I would make damn sure what I was buying...from multiple sources...If I had any reason to doubt what I was buying...I wouldn't do the deal...on Hets....or specter...or anything..

 

[andrew_snake_sale]

You touched on getting rat bitten snakes
In nov I Did a trade with someone. He was sending me 5 snakes for 2 of mine )higher end morph)
When I got his and immediately nori bed am abscess on the jaw of one and another had visible rat bites on his head neck area. I contacted him and he said rat bites are normal and that they will heal. They weren't healing and the one with the access was refusing to eat. We asked him to return our 2 we sent him and we would return his after he had ours for 12 days an said we would return his
He said he couldn't do that because he had already started breeding them
Less than 2 weeks?? Obviously his quadrant evening issues should be questioned on top of his beliefs that rat bitten snakes with abscesses were normal. We thought what we offered to trade back was fair. He did not. We took the 2 snakes with the injures to the vet and it was worse that we thought. The abscesses one had to go back to get the abscesses drained and the other had a ri, mouth imfection, some mouth rot and the visual bites. We were unable to resolve this with him.but when we posted on the fb boi he made himself out like the good guy and said he agreed to pay the bills and when the weather got nice he would send pit replacements. Not trusting him anymore. We were skeptical to st the least but we were scrutinized in the posts and made put to be the bad guys somehow. Any way he publicly said he was acting the bet bills so far and it has been a bout 2 weeks with no payment from him. Just more excuses. It really sucks when a trade or a deal goes bad and the person at fault fails to make it right
In this situation he knew that he was sending us those snakes in those conditions and now he won't pay the bills as promised and is unwilling to expisite the return of either our 2 bps or the 2 replacements. We have to care for these two snakes every day giving them inj antibiotics etc until what we get them healthy all for him to possibly send us sick replacements. It's really fristrating

 

[AbsoluteApril]

.but when we posted on the fb boi he made himself out like the good guy

just a side note but I wanted to clarify - the 'boi' that exists on facebook has no affiliation with FaunaClassifieds Board of Inquiry.

 

[FireStorm]

I've always thought situations like this pose somewhat of a dilemma. For example, let's say that instead of dealing with a misidentified morph we are dealing with a missexed animal.

In scenario A, someone buys a Jigsaw male, hoping to breed it to some normal females. Midway through the season, the male won't breed so the person double checks the sex and finds out the Jigsaw male is actually a female.

In scenario B, someone buys a Jigsaw male, hoping to breed it to a GHI female. It won't breed, so midway through the season the person rechecks the sex and finds it is a female.

In both scenarios, the mistake was the same. A Jigsaw male that turned out to be a female. So, is person B entitled to more in compensation than person A?

What if the person who produced the Jigsaw is a hobby breeder who only has single pair or a few pairs? Does this person now owe person B thousands of dollars since they had a GHI to pair the Jigsaw to?

I absolutely think if you bought a Gravel, and it turned out to be a normal you are entitled to something in compensation. I just think figuring out a solution that makes everyone happy is tough. It seems like it could be a slippery slope...what if you paired the misidentified Gravel to higher end females? All Super Pastel Ivories? What compensation should you get now?

 

[Randy F]

Well Shelly that very same thing happened to me. I took 100% responsibility for it. Wether I got busy and didn't sex it or maybe myself and the seller just saw huge scent glands and mistook them as hemipenes is unknown. It's the buyers responsibility to sex right away and the sellers responsibility to fix it right away.

 

[AFMike27]

Well Shelly that very same thing happened to me. I took 100% responsibility for it. Wether I got busy and didn't sex it or maybe myself and the seller just saw huge scent glands and mistook them as hemipenes is unknown. It's the buyers responsibility to sex right away and the sellers responsibility to fix it right away.

Just to play Devil's advocate [assuming the snake in question was sold as female], what if the buyer is inexperienced and either tries to pop the snake and does so incorrectly, and assumes it to be female since no hemipenes came out. Does the buyer now assume liability when 2-3 years or more later he tries to breed the female only to discover that it's a male.. Or is it still entirely on the seller, who sold the wrong product? I think that yes, it would be very convenient and simple if the buyer realized right away the snake was sexed incorrectly. I don't, however believe that it is their responsibility to do so. As a seller, I'd stand by my genetics and sexing with a lifetime guarantee. The compensation if something goes wrong is where things get interesting.

Shelly brought up a very interesting point. Lets say, in my case I am a very small hobbyist breeder with 2-4 clutches. And I produced and sold a "male" fire enchi to somebody, only to find a year later it was a female when he attempted to breed to his high end ghi, bamboo, etc.. females. I cannot afford to compensate somebody for what a ghi enchi, ghi fire, bamboo enchi etc.. would go for. Although I did unintentionally screw them out of those very possibilities. At the least, I would try to give them $ back, plus a male of higher value. Say, fire enchi pastel. I don't know, I guess it is very difficult to come to an amicable solution in that scenario, although like Randy brought up, much more simple if the buyer catches it right away. Simple exchange or refund and you're done.

 

[FireStorm]

I agree, ideally it would be caught right away, so it could be fixed easily. But it doesn't always work that way. I just had my first missexed snake (I was the buyer). I bought a "female" Mojave at a show in 2011. I watched the seller pop "her" at the show, so I never double checked (my bad). I just resexed "her" because I thought "her" behavior was a little odd for a female this time of year. Low and behold, sperm plugs. If the Mojave had been a female, I would have bred it to a Mystice Quake het Black Lace this season. But there is no way I'm going to call the seller up and tell them they owe me compensation for that hypothetical clutch. In reality, I'm not going to ask for anything. I'm just going to chalk it up to a lesson learned - pop or probe the snake myself next time.

But, as a seller, if a customer came back to me after a period of time, I would still like to offer them something to make up for my mistake. I just think asking for compensation for hypothetical babies is unfair. As a seller, I also encourage my customers to double check the sex on their purchases right away.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

I've always thought situations like this pose somewhat of a dilemma. For example, let's say that instead of dealing with a misidentified morph we are dealing with a missexed animal.

When I was first starting out, I didn't know how to sex snakes and bought a group of corns, took the seller at his word. About 3 or 4 years later when I wanted to breed, took to a pet store to get resexed after not getting any results and turns out they were all males. It had been so long, I didn't expect or get anything back. I sold a missexed boa back in '01 or something, neither of us caught it, the guy let me know 5 years later and didn't ask for anything in return. I sent him a free baby of the correct sex as a token of goodwill and he was happy with that. Personally I feel it's something that should be spelled out in the TOS. I now give buyers a timeframe (5 days) to confirm sex for refund/replacement.

The issue with morphs can be a bit more tricky, especially with the morphs that are hard to tell. I feel, as a seller, if I'm not 100% sure what I'm selling, it should be sold as a 'possible xx'. There's a lot of scenarios that may or may not work and I guess depends on a case by case basis as far as proving it out, odds and the like. Anyways, this is a very interesting thread.

 

[FireStorm]

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the whole hypothetical clutch scenario, I have been trying to produce a Firefly for 3 years, from Fire x Pastel pairings. I have had one clutch of Pastels and normals, one clutch of all Fires, and one clutch of Fires, Pastels, and normals. I have no idea why I have such bad luck when it comes to Fireflys...I've hit plenty of other Fire combos. I have also had a Spider x normal clutch that was all normals.

Now I realize that if you don't hit any highways or gravels, at some point you aren't dealing with the morph you bought. But, if you did have a gravel, there is still no way to have any idea what you should have produced...

 

[David Reid]

I got a Spectre male in trade for a Mojave Het Axanthic male, back when both were about equal value at $1500. When I got the male, I immediately emailed the other party and told him it looked identical to my YB female. I told him I was pretty sure it was not a Spectre, and was given the run around. I finally was told to email the actual breeder of the snake. I was told by the actual breeder of the snake that if it did not prove out, I would be sent a trio of Spectres. Well, I got Ivories from the "Spectre" male, proving out that I was correct, and that it was not a Spectre but a $50 male YB. The breeder of the snake actually did send me out a trio of Spectres, that actually look like Spectres, but this is two years after the fact, and the guy I did the original trade with continues to ignore my emails. So, he got a $1500 snake, got to breed it and get the correct offspring, I got a $50 snake in return. I then get a trio of snakes that are still not even valued at $1500, but not from the actual guy I did the trade with. The only good thing, I got a Paradox Ivory male out of the breeding I did.