Morph Guide

magick-bears

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I was wondering if there is a Leopard Gecko morph/genetics guide available (online or off) anywhere. I would love to see a listing of all the morphs with a description and if it is genetic or line-bred. If genetic then is it simple recessive, co-dom, multiple genes, etc.

Thanks,
Jeff C.
 
Here's one of my favorite sites . .

Steve is an awesome guy and his site is very informative.
Here is the morph page, but you can also click on the genetics link for tons of info. I actually have a lot of this info. printed out and refer to it often. Hope it helps you!
Nicole
 
your "favorite site" doesnt even acknowledge hypos to be anything but line bred. i emailed steve sykes about this and his claim that...

Hypo tangerine and carrot tail are both line-bred traits.

on his morph page.

this is untrue. while before the discovery of the Ray Hines Hypo Carrot Tail all hypos were linebred, RHHCTs have been around since 2000 (i believe thats when they hit).

he believes the "giants" and Mack snows (he calls them genetic snows) to be codominant (and actually both those traits should be INCOMPLETE DOMINANT. a non-super codominant giant gene would look like elephantitis and a non-super codominant mack snow would have SECTIONS of yellow or red pigment not just an overall more yellow hue). however even the producers of these morphs call them codominant so thats understandable.

but the part that puzzles me is why he would recognize giants to be codominant, which ron tremper just admitted within the last year (remember giants used be a simple recessive trait according to ron tremper?), and claim hypos are not. he even has pictures of super hypo carrot tails on his site. :rolleyes:
 
So what you're saying is . .

that overall, the info. he has posted on the different morphs is inaccurate? I have a very slight understanding of leo genetics and was using the info. from his site as well as a few others to understand it a little better . . however I seem to be getting a lot of conflicting information. And what is Incomplete Dominance? I am only working with Bells and Tangs right now, but I would certainly appreciate some background . . Geesh, it can be so confusing! :confused: Thanks for catching that and pointing it out . .
Nicole
 
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diablohogs said:
your "favorite site" doesnt even...

this is untrue...

... actually both those traits should be ...

but the part that puzzles me is ...
Chad, I look forward to viewing your Leopard Gecko Morphs page, complete with photos and error-free descriptions.
 
Chad, I look forward to viewing your Leopard Gecko Morphs page, complete with photos and error-free descriptions.

me too.

my leopard gecko website is currently a work in progress but i promise to include a morphs page when it is finished.
 
overall, the info. he has posted on the different morphs is inaccurate

no not really. actually all of what i read on his morphs was accurate with the exception of the info on hypos and how it is is inherited.

as far as incomplete dominance goes... the subject of codominant vs. incomplete dominance has come up before. i sugest typing in "incomplete dominance" in the leopard gecko forums search engine you will find many threads that touch on the subject. you may even find the thread where the difference was explained to me for the first time.
 
diablohogs said:
as far as incomplete dominance goes... the subject of codominant vs. incomplete dominance has come up before. i sugest typing in "incomplete dominance" in the leopard gecko forums search engine you will find many threads that touch on the subject. you may even find the thread where the difference was explained to me for the first time.
Geneticists frequently use the term "codominant" as an umbrella term for all the various intermediate forms of dominance (partial dominance, incomplete dominance, semi dominance, transdominance to name just a few). The term "codominant" is particularly preferred if the exact workings of the gene in question has not fully been explored. So, IMO, giants and mack snows are most accurately labelled as "codominant" at this time, as any more sophisticated definition would be premature (not to mention subject to endless (huge yawn) debate, as there exist contradictory definitions of the more specific terms).
 
I figured I should jump in here....

When I was first writing my genetics webpage I was waiting for people to try and attack my writings as inaccurate, and so far I haven't had any complaints. Chad, you are correct in that the hypo characteristic of true Ray Hine carrot tails is a dominant trait, and its pure form is the "ghost" morph that K&N Reptiles and Jodi Aherns are producing. I just talked to Jodi Aherns, and based on his observations of producing ghosts it sounds to be a dominant trait rather than a codominant, but we are still not 100% sure.

When I get a chance to revise my genetics page I will incorporate the dominant hypo addition. However, I fear it will only serve to confuse people further, and leave people thinking "Is my hypo a line bred or dominant...oh well, I give up. This stuff is just too confusing!". Realistically, if you had two animals side by side that exhibit equal amounts of hypo melanism and with a similar base color (yellow or orange), you can not distinguish a dominant ghost from a line bred hypo.

I am a biologist and have studied basic genetics and even taught it to my Bio 101 lab students, complete with a Punnet Square on how to create a patternless albino with a double het x double het breeding...man were they bored! I don't claim to be a genetics expert, and am always looking to add to my knowledge. It is my understanding that a co-dominant trait is one that has a "super" form, where the homozygous form (carrying two copies of the gene) looks markedly different than the heterozygous form (one copy of the gene), and a dominant trait to be one that doesn't have a "super" form (the homozygous and heterozygous forms look the same). The best example I can think of is with ball pythons...traits like pastel, cinnamon pastel, and mojave have a super forms and are codominant, while spiders do not have a super form (homozygous and heterozygous look the same). Mack snows are clearly codominant under this definition. It is unfortunate that the only distinguishing feature of a "super giant" is relative size, it isn't clear cut like a color difference.

Chad, do you have any examples of reptile morphs (any species) that fall into the other types of dominance?

Chad, I'm just curious, you said:
"a non-super codominant giant gene would look like elephantitis and a non-super codominant mack snow would have SECTIONS of yellow or red pigment not just an overall more yellow hue)."

Where did you get these ideas from?

I do believe that giants are a dominant gene for sure (and very likely a co-dominant) based on my experiences working with the morph over the last few years. I got a good group of giants soon after they were released, and raised a lot of "hets" and full blood giants (giant x giant breeding) to adulthood in 2003 (when they were thought to be recessive). For my ability to sell them, it was unfortunate the vast majority turned out to be males. But for my ability to gauge relative adult male size it worked out well. I couldn't understand why some of my giant "het" males (giant x normal-sized breeding) were getting to giant size, and some of my full blooded giants (giant x giant breeding) weren't getting to giant size. Recognizing this as a dominant gene explains my observations. The large, giant-sized "hets" were carrying one copy of the giant gene and expressing it with a larger phenotype, and the non-giant size, full blooded giants were the 1 out of 4 non giant you would expect from breeding two, one-copy giants together (Gg genotype).

Genetics can be a difficult subject, especially for those that may not have studied it in college (or skipped that class!). Unfortunately not all the "big name" breeders have a full understanding of even some basic concepts. I'll never forget one of the "big name" breeders told me years ago that if you hatch 15 eggs from a double het x double het breeding and didn't get the patternless albino or blazing blizzard the 16th egg was guaranteed to be the double recessive...ummm, no.

I always welcome friendly comments on my genetics page, so if you have any more suggestions let me know. Maybe one day soon when I finish my Master's thesis I can sit down and finish all the sections, and add sections on the new genes that have been discovered since I wrote the first version. If I really want to confuse people maybe I'll put in a Punnett Square of how to produce a super snow patternless albino!

Regards,

Steve Sykes
 
When I get a chance to revise my genetics page I will incorporate the dominant hypo addition. However, I fear it will only serve to confuse people further, and leave people thinking "Is my hypo a line bred or dominant...oh well, I give up.

yeah i dont agree with "lets simplify things to not confuse people" approach you are using. hows that Murphys Law go... "if you create a system even a fool can use, only a fool will use it."?

and its pure form is the "ghost" morph that K&N Reptiles and Jodi Aherns are producing

than what is the UNPURE form? a super hypo? Ray Hines Hypo Carrot Tails are clearly at the very least codominant.

you can not distinguish a dominant ghost from a line bred hypo
are you sure that i cant? prove that. and why do you insist on calling the Ray hines carrot tail gene "a ghost"? you said yourself its the same gene Ray Hines introduced doesnt he get to name it? im pretty sure he calls them hypo carrot tails not ghosts.

It is my understanding that a co-dominant trait is one that has a "super" form, where the homozygous form (carrying two copies of the gene) looks markedly different than the heterozygous form (one copy of the gene), and a dominant trait to be one that doesn't have a "super" form (the homozygous and heterozygous forms look the same). The best example I can think of is with ball pythons...traits like pastel, cinnamon pastel, and mojave have a super forms and are codominant, while spiders do not have a super form (homozygous and heterozygous look the same).

there is a big difference between dominant, codominant and incomplete dominance.

dominant: when there need be only a single allelle and there is only one phenotype in homozygous vs. heterozygous. wild type traits (a majority of the wild population) are always dominant traits.

codominant: these are dominant traits that have a (super) homozygous phenotype and a heterozygous phenotype. a codominant phenotype would be more like a white cow with black spots if white was dominant and black was codominant in the heterozygote and solid black in a homozygote.

incomplete dominance: these are dominant traits that also have a (super) homozygous phenotype and a heterozygous phenotype. the difference being that if white was codominant in this cow and black was incomplete dominance the heterozyogte would be grey and the homozygote would be black.

Chad, do you have any examples of reptile morphs (any species) that fall into the other types of dominance?

i believe the salmon morph in red tail boas to be a perfect example of incomplete dominance. i tend to agree that people like to call any variation of dominance that isnt regular dominance a codominant trait.

Chad, I'm just curious, you said:
"a non-super codominant giant gene would look like elephantitis and a non-super codominant mack snow would have SECTIONS of yellow or red pigment not just an overall more yellow hue)."

Where did you get these ideas from?

see my definitions of incomplete dominance and codominance. where do you get the idea that an overall larger heterozygous animal could possibly be codominant?

f I really want to confuse people maybe I'll put in a Punnett Square of how to produce a super snow patternless albino!

please. id love to see it.
 
hey Steve...

if i breed my super hypo ct thats het for tremper albino to a tremper albino will i get all hypo cts and hybinos?

okay then if i breed two of the hybinos to each other will i produce all hybinos or will i breed some super hybinos?

honestly im reaching with the mack snows being incomplete dominant. i admit its more a guess. i have never worked with any snow variation in leopard geckos so maybe i should wait til i have before i start making claims about its genetic properties. my bad.

but hypos are clearly a codominant morph. ive crossed a super hypo carrot tail to a hypo carrot tail and ive crossed two super hypo carrot tails. this produces a spectrum of melanism presence in both heterozygous and homozygous phenotypes. the least spotted and cleaner looking of them being homozygotes (super hypos carrot tails). the old rule of thumb that a super hypo has so many spots and a hypo has more no longer applies. now you need to cross it to a normal to learn the genetics (hypo ct X non-bling...lol.).

show me a line bred hypo that looks like this...
 

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Here is how incomplete dom and co dom work.... Simply put by using flowers.... I have seen this before and it is the easiest way to remember....

Incomplete dom= (homo) Blue flower X (homo) Red flower = Purple flower

Co dom= (homo) Blue flower X (homo) Red flower = A flower with some blue petals and some red petals.....
 
Here is how incomplete dom and co dom work.... Simply put by using flowers.... I have seen this before and it is the easiest way to remember....

Incomplete dom= (homo) Blue flower X (homo) Red flower = Purple flower

Co dom= (homo) Blue flower X (homo) Red flower = A flower with some blue petals and some red petals.....

this is exactly what i was saying with the cows. hense why i say that a codominant giant would have only some giant body part (maybe the ead or feet or something) which would resemble elephantitis.

you are fixxin to be schooled

me? i seriously doubt that. but i welcome him to try to "school me".
 
Ray Hine didn't call them ghosts, he called them hypos, then later on hypo carrot tails. Ghost is just a fancy new name for the purpose of marketing.

I think there is probably some sort of dominant trait at work with the Hine lline super hypos, but I've been breeding them since 00-01 and I still can't figure out exactly what. Maybe it's just a really strong trait, who knows.

I'm not even going to get started on the whole Giant thing. What a mess that was!
 
Ray Hine didn't call them ghosts, he called them hypos, then later on hypo carrot tails. Ghost is just a fancy new name for the purpose of marketing.

in other words... ghosts are make-believe.
 
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