Culling normal offspring because they're "ugly". Ethical?

[Fangthane]

This is a debate that's been raging in the chat room for the past couple of days. A couple of individuals have advocated culling their normal offspring because they're not attractive, and, as such, wouldn't possibly be properly cared for, if they were to be sold as pets. Their justification seemingly being that the dollar amount that's attached to an animal, will automatically dictate the type of care it receives. I was curious to see what the general concensus would be, in regards to actually following through with this practice. Keep in mind, we're not talking about animals with birth defects; no kinks, bug-eyes, inherent genetic flaws, simply normal offspring that they feel aren't pretty enough for anyone to care about. Opinions?

 

[Millinex]

If you call yourself a reptile lover, reptile keeper, animal lover, or anything of the like and advocate killing an animal based on appearance alone- you are a disgusting person through and through and have zero business in this hobby.

My cats were both free, they have retarded amounts of toys, an expensive jungle gym, vet care. My monitor was $40, she has everything under the sun including a nice large cage, tons of different food items, a swimming pool, time out and about socializing. I know so many people who own normal snakes- who take OUTSTANDING care of their animals. I know breeders who do as well. On the flip side, I know keepers with awful care, awful cages, disgusting environment- and suffering snakes. I also know breeders with the same situation, who keep them as minimally as possible to get by and to make a few extra bucks in the coming seasons. I've seen the best and the worst out of both parties.

If you're breeding snakes, you're going to get "uglies" and nice snakes, both have a chance at a great life, both have the possibility of ending up dead and badly taken care of. Let them have their chance at life, you brought them into the world, it's your responsibility to make sure they get a decent home if you're worried about it. If you don't think you can find great homes for every animal you produce- don't produce animals.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

I am for culling deformed or bad genetic animals, animals with weak or nonexistant feed response to better the quality of a line over the long term. I am not okay with, personally killing normals just because they are less valuable. Only those with actual issues that cannot be fixed or may end up with a dead snake in the future.

This is why i wont work with animals like the spiders in BPs anymore.

 

[Araidia]

That's just appalling, people like that shouldn't be anywhere near animals let alone breeding them. I've found that the easiest animals to find a good home for are the normals. I still get updates from the owner of a $10 normal male ball python I sold years ago that is spoiled rotten. Normals are in no way ugly, my two favorite snakes are nothing but normals but I wouldn't part with them for all the money in the world. These people sound like they're only in it for the money if they can't be bothered with any animal they can't make money from. What's next? Cull pastels because they're cheap? I can see if there's a legit health problem and the animal won't have a good quality of life but to do it to a perfectly healthy animal is just disgusting and pure laziness and greed.

 

[hhmoore]

I missed out on the conversations that led up to this; but it isn't as if the idea is unheard of. For a long time, dog breeders culled pups that didn't conform to standards...and you can bet that caused a lot more uproar than people culling snakes (and that example isn't limited just to dog breeders, just for the record).

This topic is one that feeds on emotions, but unless a person is actually culling snakes based on appearance, is there really anything to get all bent about? Did the people involved actually kill the snakes, or was it just a discussion?
If people are giving snakes away or selling them dirt cheap - they're accused of killing the market, and or overproducing. If they release native species, they're criticized and publicly flogged. If they cull them, they are heartless SOBs that only do this for the money. There's just no right thing to do, lol.

I've culled my share of animals over the years - sure, most of them have had some physical deformity, but there were some nonfeeders... Before I go any further, is it better to cull a nonfeeder, or to let it slowly starve to death? I've culled some hyperaggressive little snots - if you can call tossing them to the alligator culling - and I've probably fed off a few that I thought were just butt ugly, as well. I know that idea is repulsive to some; but if I have a snake, and something that eats snakes, who is to say that I cannot feed the snake to something else? Is that allowed only if I have offered to give it away? What if I don't want to? Is there a monetary value that makes it okay (since dollar figures have come up in this conversation)? Is it better to feed off a cheap animal, or an expensive one? If it's a cheap animal, people just get offended and outraged that one could be so callous - and of course, they lob the accusation that it is based on the low value of the snake. People seem to get a different kind of upset over the idea of "wasting" the expensive one...but how much of that is because they think it should have been offered at a cut rate, so they could get their hands on it?

 

[Fangthane]

This topic is one that feeds on emotions, but unless a person is actually culling snakes based on appearance, is there really anything to get all bent about? Did the people involved actually kill the snakes, or was it just a discussion?

Not that I'm aware of, no. I'm simply relaying something that I feel was seriously advocated. While it's now being labeled as a purely hypothetical scenario, it definitely didn't come across as something that wasn't being seriously considered. I'm sure someone may be quick to point out that I must be biased, or simply missed the whole point, but I don't think so. As it was seemingly presented as not only a viable solution, but a reasonable one, I thought it'd make an interesting topic for discussion.

It's not a premise that I've seen anyone endorse before. And to steal your potential thunder, yes, I'm no one. I've never produced any offspring, I'm not an active part of "the scene". As such, I must have no comprehension of the trials and tribulations of a breeder/seller. Just thought I'd throw that out there, in the likelihood that the simple act of disagreeing with you will devolve this into a popularity/relevance contest that I lose by default.

If people are giving snakes away or selling them dirt cheap - they're accused of killing the market, and or overproducing. If they release native species, they're criticized and publicly flogged. If they cull them, they are heartless SOBs that only do this for the money. There's just no right thing to do, lol.

That's kinda clouding the issue. We're talking about normal babies, which are basically "dirt cheap" to begin with. This isn't regarding a matter of being unprepared and having too many offspring to get rid of. It was presented as a situation where, those that would have produced the offspring, feel that they're undeserving of a chance to live, based on their appearance and/or lack of special genetic traits. I think that there should be a valid reason for killing something, beyond deciding that since they're not special in any way, that there's no possibillity that anyone could find them desireable in any way.

I'm sure some others will make the "disposable pets" argument. That since they're "cheap", someone is less likely to care about them, and they'll have a much decreased chance at receiving proper care. That mentality could be used to justify so many deaths, in so many different species. Obviously it happens, but since it's not always a matter of the low-dollar animals being neglected, wouldn't that also be an argument against ANY breeding? There's always the possibility that someone just won't do right by the animal, no matter what it cost.

Of course, people generally tend to place more value on that which costs them more. However, I don't think that's the whole story, nor would it be enough to make me kill off all but the valuable offspring from a litter. In my estimation, the chance for life is better than the certainty of death.

I've culled my share of animals over the years - sure, most of them have had some physical deformity, but there were some nonfeeders... Before I go any further, is it better to cull a nonfeeder, or to let it slowly starve to death? I've culled some hyperaggressive little snots - if you can call tossing them to the alligator culling - and I've probably fed off a few that I thought were just butt ugly, as well. I know that idea is repulsive to some; but if I have a snake, and something that eats snakes, who is to say that I cannot feed the snake to something else? Is that allowed only if I have offered to give it away? What if I don't want to? Is there a monetary value that makes it okay (since dollar figures have come up in this conversation)? Is it better to feed off a cheap animal, or an expensive one? If it's a cheap animal, people just get offended and outraged that one could be so callous - and of course, they lob the accusation that it is based on the low value of the snake. People seem to get a different kind of upset over the idea of "wasting" the expensive one...but how much of that is because they think it should have been offered at a cut rate, so they could get their hands on it?

Obviously, many will have different opinions as to what could be considered a good reason for culling. I just don't believe that being "normal" which, to some people, seems to equate to "ugly", is a particularly good reason. I don't like the idea that their monetary value should come into play that heavily. However, as the argument was presented in such a way as to endorse killing the ugly normal babies, money must figure into some peoples' reasoning. I don't recall seeing anything that advocated killing off the plainer looking morphs.

 

[DISCERN]

These children who would perpetuate culling a snake because it is a normal phase, do not have the requirements from a sensible standpoint, to own any animal, much less a snake.

They have no business being in the hobby, and their disgusting and SELFISH actions only would illustrate even more how shallow they are, and their views on life.

First of all, they have no concept of the industry or pet trade to begin with. Normals are sold quite often, still produced, still loved and favored by many, myself included, and there IS a market for them. The fact that they think that something like the price, if it was low, attributes to the care that would be given, from their uneducated assumptions, is beyond awesome and creates much laughter, and to think that someone would be that foolish, to actually believe that, is another misnomer.

But then again, think about it. These are humans speaking these immature reasonings.

How would these people feel if their parents culled them for being normal, when they were born? Their existence to live, breathe, and waste precious moments in life to speak about culling normals is their own hypocrisy in action. Their parents DID NOT cull them, for being normal. It takes a real tough guy to cull a defenseless animal because it does not look like something they like or it is a normal.

I have known of culling of normals for quite some time, as it isn't something new. It is just the fact that someone would be that selfish, to think a normal would NEED to be culled, a healthy snake, with no health issues, nothing, is just mind boggling.

But again, we are talking about man and his selfishness. Look at the world, and how messed it up is. Self and man, man and self.

AND...we, as herpers, would love to find some sort of escape from that sad aspect of life here on earth, with our hobby, and yet again, you have people who say they are herpers, and in their actions, they are not true herpers and lovers of animals, creating un-needed chaos and unfortunate deaths to normal and healthy snakes. All for the big picture of their shallow minds: Money!!

They need to leave. They are not true herpers. They do not want to think about spending any amount of their time trying to sell normals for ( gasp! ), less money! In doing so, they simply will cull. It is a combination of laziness and greed. Nothing else. The reasonings of "ooooooooooooh...they may not have good homes because they are cheap! Oooooooooohhh " ( Dice Clay voice ), do not stand up to sound logic. They are simply trying to come up with some sad justification of culling these fine animals to begin with.

I have many normals. I know many herpers who have many normals. We have gladly paid hi and low for these normal snakes. They have the best homes, the best care, and are enjoyed immensely. Normals are preferred by many, myself included.

Again, the hobby, AND the snakes, would be better off without them.

Just my thoughts.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

Beautiful post Billy.

 

[hhmoore]

I want to add a few more thoughts; but I'm going to wait until I am home, on my PC.

 

[~Just Curious~]

Just my two cents~

A couple of individuals have advocated culling their normal offspring because they're not attractive, and, as such, wouldn't possibly be properly cared for, if they were to be sold as pets.

Sounds to me like they aren't willing to properly house/feed a low-cost animal and just assume others are as shallow. You need to have a lot of tubs available when a clutch hatches and they can eat quite a lot before being rehomed. After producing a cheaper animal, some only concerned with profit might feel that it's not worth the energy and resources needed before it sells. I believe that's what it comes down to.

I think that killing a flawless (Being normal is not a flaw) animal due to the possibility that it might not have a good home is dumb. You could apply that logic to any animal. Bad people are going to treat animals badly, good folks vice versa. There's plenty of cases where "higher" animals were neglected too, it's horrible no matter the poor creature's pricetag.
However if one truly felt they have no chance at a good life, then why would they be intentially breeding/incubating them into such a world? I want to say dollar signs - I'm assuming they were aiming for some morph, but they still have to know their odds of producing "by product normals". It was their choice to breed, all the lives that follow are their responsibility. Even if for some reason, these "reptile-enthusiasts" see natural phases as some consequence instead of healthy creatures, it's still their consequence to deal with and care for until a good home can be found. If they choose to just throw away a perfect life instead of not giving them that time, then I would consider that selfish. The young don't ask for much. If they're asking for more than you can provide, then I feel you should stop getting in over your head by creating them.

The truth is that they obviously still have a chance and even if it does take longer to rehome, it's certainly doable. Many people don't see normals as "unattractive" or purposeless in breeding, and there is demand for pets from good families. I've noticed that the most beloved tend to be of the cheaper sort anyways. Ignoring the obvious example of my rescued and much spoiled pooch, the costliest herps in my collection all start out as the cheapest. Compared to my tiny, but profitable species, these large and active ones aren't really worth anything and I've never quite wanted to breed them either. Yet their enclosure stacks take up an entire wall and they love nothing more than eating me out of house and home. Awesome lil' money suckers, I wouldn't trade them for the world. One of my all-time favorites was a normal black rat snake with a sour attitude, worth maybe $15, and my $50 gopher snake just racked up close to $500 in vet bills.
That's all okay though because I chose to take care of them when I chose to get/produce them~

Bottom line of my beliefs: There's more to an animal than just some color/pattern, also don't produce what you can't care for.

P.S. My opinion on this culling doesn't apply to unfortunate animals stricken with legitimate health issues.

 

[hhmoore]

in the likelihood that the simple act of disagreeing with you will devolve this into a popularity/relevance contest that I lose by default.

Dan, I would have thought you knew me better than that.

If you thought my comments about the responses to various actions taken by some breeders were clouding the issue, you may not like my followup...

I did get a bit off track in my prior response, in that I made several references to feeding baby/young snakes to other things. Your original question was about culling healthy normals. To be clear, I do not advocate culling healthy normal babies - regardless of whether it be because they are deemed less attractive or because the lower cost might lead to a lower level of care. That said, I'm going to muddy the waters a bit. I am one of many that has openly lamented the deterioration of many morphs, which can be attributed to several reasons. I have been pretty open to anybody that has entered this discussion with me, so there's no harm in me stating it here.
I breed snakes for my own enjoyment, and to achieve my personal goals. I don't care about having the best prices, or how many snakes I produce. What I want to be known for is good business dealings, sound information, and quality animals - not in any particular order. That said, even with being selective in choosing my breeders, sometimes the babies aren't as nice as I would like. I don't particularly want to put my name on them; and, since I think that too large a part of the consumer group hasn't accepted the concept of tiered pricing, I don't want to deal with selling them. I prefer to wholesale normals and what I consider lower quality animals; keeping the better ones to sell myself (that sometimes includes nice normals). If I've got a fair amount of babies, I may wholesale even some of the good stuff, just so I don't have to deal with the hassle of selling. That is my solution, not everybody agrees with it...no big deal, to each his own.
I know some people that don't like the idea of wholesaling for any number of reasons, but they agree with the idea of only selling "quality" animals. They also feel that those "low quality" or "ugly" morphs shouldn't be put into the breeding pool. I can't comment on whether it is still their practice; but, at times, they culled those animals. On one level, I understand that line of thinking - it's not an issue of cheap...or even a concern about the lack of care the snakes might receive (so it one might argue that it is a separate issue) - it's about maintaining a standard. Mass production has been detrimental to many types of snakes, and dedicated hobbyists are trying to turn things back around. Sure - there's a difference between a bug eyed leucistic Texas rat snake and an ugly pastel BP; but some believe that the only way to reset the situation is to ensure that sub par specimens aren't bred. The only effective way to do that is to maintain control of them for the duration of their reproductive life, or to cull them. Maybe one day it will be common to neuter/spay snakes; and these "pet quality" specimens will be sold with that stipulation (like with dogs, cats, etc), but we aren't there yet.
When I've discussed this with people that were honest enough to admit to me that they culled in this manner, my response was something along the lines of I can understand why you did it; but my advice is to keep it quiet...and definitely don't post it on a forum. I don't know if this has anything to do with the conversations that led to this thread, or how much of the chat might have been chalked up to just playing on people's reactions - it might be interesting to find out, though.

I'll probably get some grief for not openly condemning the idea of culling based on appearance; so all I ask is that you not stretch this into comparisons with killing people based on their looks. Most people aren't being bred for specific traits, so the comparison falls flat.
I know, I drifted well away from the subject of culling normals because they're normals - again.

 

[FireStorm]

I personally would not cull healthy normals...I don't need to and don't want to, but I'm not sure there is an absolute right or wrong answer. Here's why (probably gonna be long winded)....

I raise my own rodents, and they are pretty much all "fancy". I figured I might as well have rodents that were pretty, since I had to have them anyway. Now, it has evolved to the point where my brother's girlfriend picks out the nicer ones and sells them as pets. She gets enough for them that we can split the money and still make a dent in the feed bill (and I still get plenty of feeders). Since I started raising rodents, I've always culled agressively, with the culled ones being fed off. I cull for any number of reasons (agression, small litters, ones I just don't want to breed, ect). Now, I'm sure some people who like rodents as pets would dislike the way I cull them. They probably don't like the idea of using them as feeders, either. But, it's given me a really sound breeding population. Nice, healthy, pretty, tame rodents. And, culling is simple, since I have things that need to eat them.

But from a philisophical standpoint, why would it be morally ok for me to cull rodents and use them as feeders, but morally wrong to do the same thing to another species? I may be more emotionally attached to one type of animal over another, but from a moral/ethical standpoint there shouldn't be a difference.

 

[hhmoore]

BTW, Dan - I don't support the "disposable pet" mentality...and I feel that not being prepared to deal with a quantity of babies should lead to the decision not to create them. I know that I didn't adhere strictly to your topic of culling normals; but culling - in general - is a subject that people probably should talk more about, at least in a theoretical sense. Despite my comments here, and my understanding of the rationale, I would still encourage people that practice that form of quality control to be very cautious in opening up about it...and I'll include this reminder that normals are a separate category.

I raised the question earlier about whether it is better to cull an nonfeeder (or a problematic one) or to let it slowly deteriorate...that leads directly to the acknowledgement that a fair number of breeders do not do much in the way of messing with babies to get them to eat (other than offering age and species appropriate prey). If the babies choose not to feed, they don't assist and force feed. I suppose that in some cases it is an unwillingness to invest the time; but the common theme among those I've spoken to is that they only want to offer the strongest babies. (Reminder - out in the real world, the survival rate of hatchlings isn't nearly what it is in captivity. Our interventions sometimes override natural selection. On the one hand, it's great that more babies live...on the other hand, maybe there is a good reason they wouldn't have survived.)

 

[Willow]

It took me nearly 6 months of assist feedings on Uno (my 20 gram enchi lesser from last year) before making the decision to cull her since she wasn't even really gaining any weight or showing any improvement in feeding response (I planned to keep her once I made the first assist feeding move...I wouldn't have sold her)

As far as normals...I wouldn't cull one unless it had issues (non feeder, kinks, wobble)....I'd give it to someone as a pet, or even a feeder to someone with a snake eating animal...its not my place to claim someone will mistreat a pet simply because it holds less value. So I like to hope the people I find home for my animals with will treat them well hehe

I have given away normals before....and have seen each one to a great home. That makes me feel good =) it would break my heart to kill a perfectly healthy animal for no reason other then it happens to be a normal =(

 

[LauraB]

(quote)it would break my heart to kill a perfectly healthy animal for no reason other then it happens to be a normal[/quote]

Plain & simple. Agreed.

 

[SPJ]

I just delivered a het albino male to a kid today that is just getting into BP's. Het albino males are not worth much on the market but I cannot tell you how good it felt to see how excited this kid was to get his first pet snake.
Normals deserve to live. Give them away as pets.

 

[Snake-Queen]

I have given away normals before....and have seen each one to a great home. That makes me feel good =) it would break my heart to kill a perfectly healthy animal for no reason other then it happens to be a normal =(

I have given normal dragons away as pets. Some people prefer normals to the morphs.

 

[Willow]

Snake keepers tend to start with normals...hehe...I love giving snakes as pets for kids...they are better then a darn hamster!

 

[Millinex]

It's funny how neither of the huge advocates of this topic have been willing to join in and explain their side of the story. 2 of our chat regulars who frequent in Boa Constrictors.

Anyone who thinks Boas are an "over-saturated market" is beyond uneducated in this hobby. Considering very few pet Boas that I've seen are badly taken care of and have not even come close to throw away status that a lot of ball python normals have.

It's funny and I'll quote direct from chat tonight "an animal that fails to be breeding quality, I guess, would be a blanket statement".

This kind of mentality is repulsive. Killing a healthy animal for not being a good enough example of the morph in someone's eyes is disgusting. How many entry level hobbyists would love to get their hands on a lower end version of a morph to work their way up and learn how to breed these reptiles but don't have thousands to invest in your breeding quality animals. You're hurting his hobby, and innocent "ugly" animals with this mentality.

Oh, and for the 2 of you supporting this idea- frankly, every normal boa I've seen produced looks frankly, prettier than you're designer morph boas. Boas are strikingly beautiful snakes as normals, and deserve plenty of credit as such.

 

[wsumike87]

I love normals! If they are healthy snakes and you don't want to find a seller you should not have been breeding. Give them away for free on here, just have people pay shipping. I would jump at that. Or join a local herp club. I have a local FB community herp group and if i offered up a free normal snake it would be gone in hours. To a good home I might add.