Info Buffalo Niagara Reptile Expo--Patrick-- Be Cautious

[ReptileGirl07]

I wanted to post this as an informational post only.

I do not want anything out of it, and do not want to be allowed back at the show by any means, but I think it’s only fair to let others (vendors and potential visitors) know what has gone on behind the scenes with this show.

I contacted the organizers of the Buffalo Niagara Reptile Expo on February 22nd 2013 about being a feeder vendor at their show.

I asked them if I could be the only feeder vendor there (I asked since this was a smaller show than, say, Hamburg and one vendor can certainly bring enough for every attendee) and they told me they understood and that they could probably work something out.

They asked to speak with me over the phone about this.
I called them on Monday February 25th and we discussed my concerns.

There really was only one other feeder only person in the area and I explicitly didn’t want them there (I’ve had other issues with that person in the past anyway, not to mention, again, the show isn’t large enough for two feeder vendors.)

When we spoke I was only looking to purchase one table but the organizer told me that if I wanted to have “exclusive rights” to the show, I would have to purchase two tables, have enough product for two tables, have help for two tables, and send payment ASAP for both tables. This would ensure no other feeder vendor would be allowed to go to the show.
I agreed and sent money via paypal immediately.

Additionally, I purchased banners for both tables, cards, products, and other supplies totaling over $2000.00 with agreements to purchase additional products right before the show.

I bought a website and spent several days setting it up (we were fairly new so everything was not prepared so we worked over time to get it done for the show).

I spoke to him on March 5th and let him know that I already had over $2000 worth of product ordered for the show and everything was prepared. I let him know I have been preparing since I first paid for the tables.

We would chat regularly and he was trying to get me to bring frogs and get a third table for the frogs. I had already spent a lot of money prepping for the feeder tables I didn’t have much left but told him I’d see what I can do.
He told me where my tables would be, told me they were right in the middle. He told me to get extension cords and power strips, which I did already buy for the show.

He asked me to promote the show and hand out fliers. I posted ads and printed fliers to hand to all my customers (out of my own pocket, but I was happy to do so, his success was my success).

He told me he was heading out my way to hand out fliers and asked me if there were any stores he should go to.

I told him I’d send him a list.

I spent some time and compiled a list of pet stores in my area. I found 12 (I believe) stores and wrote him a list with addresses for each of the locations for him to visit. This was March 7th.

On the 8th he informed me that the person we explicitly talked about joined their facebook page but not to worry because they were all set on feeders for the show.

On March 9th I received a message from Patrick (the organizer of the show ) telling me to call him back. I called immediately.

He started beating around the bush and telling me he got a message from the vendor we had talked about not being there (because I had exclusive rights). He started telling me he was very pushy and that the other feeder breeder said “I want to be at this show, I AM going to be there.

Competition is good for the show, I’m going to this show”.

He told me that the other feeder breeder then sent money for a table even though he was told “no”.

He said he was very sorry but he would be allowing the other vendor to be there because it’s his first show that he’s organizing and he wants it to turn out good. He wants there to be a good turnout.

He said he is afraid that the other feeder breeder will start spreading things around about the show and other vendors will drop out because he didn’t let him in.

He said the other feeder breeder knows “a lot of people and he doesn’t want them to not come because he didn’t allow him to be a vendor”
I don’t remember if he said the other feeder breeder implied he WOULD ruin the show for him but that was the vibe I was getting from what he was saying.

So in turn, to save his own “butt” from being “bad mouthed” he allowed the feeder breeder to join the show.

I told him I couldn’t be there if he was there, the other feeder breeder may be able to go much lower on prices than I would be able to. He’s been around a little longer than I have and this would be my first real show as a company. I told him that I had already spent a few thousand on this show and I was afraid to waste more money renting a trailer, gas, etc going to the show only to sell nothing.

He told me he would give me the tables free, and hand me the cash once I showed up for the show. He also told me after the first show, if I go to it, he would make sure I was the exclusive vendor for subsequent shows.
I told him I was sorry but based on what has happened thus far, I had trouble believing what he said.

At that point I was becoming emotional and told him I needed to think on it and let him know what I decided.

Later that night he sent me an email stating he was refunding my money for my tables and that he did not believe it was right to have exclusive vendors.

He said “We made an effort to satisfy you and extended above and beyond customer service to your business.”


I personally feel betrayed and used. I went above and beyond, promoting this show, purchasing thousands of dollars in product and rushing everything for the show because of what he told me.

We had a verbal contract which I made THOUSANDS of dollars worth of purchases based on.

Yes, I could still sell the product, but it will take me much longer due to lack of exposure. I also did not need to RUSH into this immediately and could have taken care of a few other things beforehand.

I made the decision to move forward at this pace based on the promise of Patrick, the coordinator of the Buffalo Niagara Reptile Expo.

It’s been a couple of weeks since this has happened. I did not want to make a post full of emotion, but, rather factual and informative.

I DO NOT expect to be allowed back at the expo with exclusive rights. I do not want anything other than to inform the herp community of what has happened and how vendors are treated by the coordinators of this expo.
I DO NOT want this to happen to anyone else going forward.

This person hopes to do additional shows and have Zoo Med sponsor these shows. It’s important people know the truth as to how things are handled behind the scenes.

I have all the emails and facebook messages back and forth, payment details, etc that I can send as proof. Obviously I do not have proof of the phone conversations.

Thanks for listening everyone. From now on, I’ll be getting everything in writing and signed.

I blacked out my email address due to it being my personal email, not business email. I also blacked out the name of the other vendor as I don't find it appropriate to post that here.

 

[ReptileGirl07]

More attachments

 

[ReptileGirl07]

Last two.

There were other chatting that went on, but these are really the only ones that seem to be important in this discussion.

 

[ReptileGirl07]

I forgot to include the last emails we sent back and forth to each other.

This was the last time we heard from each other

 

[spawn]

Lesson learned - don't ask to be an exclusive vendor based on word alone. Get it in writing.

I'm sorry you spent so much money on this Elena. At least you got your money back.

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around on what you spent $2000 on? Not that it particularly matters, I'm just curious. Do you do roaches or is it strictly rodents?

 

[ReptileGirl07]

Right now feeder mice, rats, guinea pigs, chicks, lizards and frogs (all frozen) and breeding mealworms (small scale, still trying to figure out how to sift and size everything properly).

I did not breed the rodents myself so a bulk of the price was shipping. I'm working on breeding everything in-house, but currently they come from a trusted supplier (and not rodent pro/mouse direct heh).

I did get breeders up and running ( I purchased a couple hundred live mice and a bunch of live rats so I'd have live for the show as well). Litters of mice are just starting to pop, bitter sweet I suppose heh

I just have what's on my website. Between banners, business cards, website, shipment of rodents, shipment of frogs/anoles, bedding (to sell), live rodents, and purchasing a freezer for everything, I spent a ton of money.

I will *hopefully* make it back if I can sell everything I purchased. I have a few customers but quite a bit of "product" lol

Lesson learned for sure! My boyfriend warned to get it in writing and I said "nah, I'm pretty sure I can trust this guy, he seems cool"--- Talk about a perfect time for the "I told you so". Thankfully he held it back.

 

[RoyalPythonPros]

Whats your website, that might help you sell a little faster.

 

[ReptileGirl07]

hehe, to avoid advertising where it doesn't belong and breaking any rules, the info is in my signature and you can PM me for further details regarding feeders

 

[AbsoluteApril]

hehe, to avoid advertising where it doesn't belong and breaking any rules, the info is in my signature and you can PM me for further details regarding feeders

thank you!

 

[Teatime]

Maybe I just never realized this, but is it normal that sellers can pay show owners to let them be the exclusive vendor of certain things? I would never have expected that to be a thing.

I think I would look askance at a show that actually didn't allow certain vendors because others had paid them off. Especially because you admit the reason you didn't want him there is because his prices are cheaper than yours. What about letting buyers decide for themselves if your feeders are worth a higher price due to a higher quality of product? But to eliminate the competition with these underhanded dealings, I don't know, it's not right in my eyes.

 

[RichsBallPythons]

Maybe I just never realized this, but is it normal that sellers can pay show owners to let them be the exclusive vendor of certain things? I would never have expected that to be a thing.

I think I would look askance at a show that actually didn't allow certain vendors because others had paid them off. Especially because you admit the reason you didn't want him there is because his prices are cheaper than yours. What about letting buyers decide for themselves if your feeders are worth a higher price due to a higher quality of product? But to eliminate the competition with these underhanded dealings, I don't know, it's not right in my eyes.

Yes they do, and IMO its pretty weak business.

If you have good quality product of your own and service, business will come regardless if there is 100 of the same vendors. I personally pass by those that do this type of thing when ordering online.

This isnt how you make friends or get a rep of being the best when you force promoters to give you rights.

 

[ReptileGirl07]

Well, first of all, there are shows will not allow more than one or two vendors selling the exact same product.
It's unfair to vendors or businesses to have to compete in a very small area like that for customers/sales.

Whomever had the cheaper prices OR could afford to lose money, will sell their product, while the other person wont sell a thing.

Generally it's bad for business as an event coordinator, to allow your supporting vendors (especially those you have a relationship with) lose business by overbooking all of the exact same product. I have hit this roadblock several times before wanting to get into shows or business areas where it would cause too much competition over a small area so I could not attend. (try opening a pet store next to another pet store in the same strip mall and I guarantee you the owner of the building will not allow it.)


I did mention to the coordinator that if the event was larger, I would have ABSOLUTELY no problem, but since the event is so small, having two feeder vendors would ensure the person with the cheapest prices would sell-out, while the person with the slightly higher prices would not sell at all.
We're not talking about hamburg or white planes with well over 100 tables, we're talking about maybe 25 tables and I was to have two of them.


In shows that there is no clause to the contract such as that, suppliers who sell goods that you'd typically see in a pet store have to abide by MAP policies, which they sign during the contracting process with their distributors. This is to prevent devaluation of the product as well as create a fair advantage for all people selling the product. One vender can not sell the product at a loss without losing their contract with the distributor.


Additionally, the other vendor I did not want at the show plays "dirty", has scammed me in the past and would certainly lower his rodent prices in order to undercut me at the show, even if it meant him losing money.

I told the coordinator what had happened to me and he ensured it would not be a problem.



I biggest concern is, there was a formal agreement between the coordinator and I, for which I based over $2000.00 of purchases on. I also went out of my way to HELP him.

If he had no intention of keeping his word and following through with our verbal contract, he should not have agreed to it in the first place. I just would not have gone, and I would not have spent the money.


I would have made an educated and informed decision not to participate if there would be that type of competition. It's my right to make that decision and that was taken away from me.

The issue at hand is not whether or not you think my business is "weak" by making informed business decisions, but an event coordinator going back on a verbal contract with a company. If you think my company or business practices are "weak", that's fine.

 

[Royal Morphz]

Well, first of all, there are shows will not allow more than one or two vendors selling the exact same product.
It's unfair to vendors or businesses to have to compete in a very small area like that for customers/sales.

Whomever had the cheaper prices OR could afford to lose money, will sell their product, while the other person wont sell a thing.

Generally it's bad for business as an event coordinator, to allow your supporting vendors (especially those you have a relationship with) lose business by overbooking all of the exact same product. I have hit this roadblock several times before wanting to get into shows or business areas where it would cause too much competition over a small area so I could not attend. (try opening a pet store next to another pet store in the same strip mall and I guarantee you the owner of the building will not allow it.)


I did mention to the coordinator that if the event was larger, I would have ABSOLUTELY no problem, but since the event is so small, having two feeder vendors would ensure the person with the cheapest prices would sell-out, while the person with the slightly higher prices would not sell at all.
We're not talking about hamburg or white planes with well over 100 tables, we're talking about maybe 25 tables and I was to have two of them.


In shows that there is no clause to the contract such as that, suppliers who sell goods that you'd typically see in a pet store have to abide by MAP policies, which they sign during the contracting process with their distributors. This is to prevent devaluation of the product as well as create a fair advantage for all people selling the product. One vender can not sell the product at a loss without losing their contract with the distributor.


Additionally, the other vendor I did not want at the show plays "dirty", has scammed me in the past and would certainly lower his rodent prices in order to undercut me at the show, even if it meant him losing money.

I told the coordinator what had happened to me and he ensured it would not be a problem.



I biggest concern is, there was a formal agreement between the coordinator and I, for which I based over $2000.00 of purchases on. I also went out of my way to HELP him.

If he had no intention of keeping his word and following through with our verbal contract, he should not have agreed to it in the first place. I just would not have gone, and I would not have spent the money.


I would have made an educated and informed decision not to participate if there would be that type of competition. It's my right to make that decision and that was taken away from me.

The issue at hand is not whether or not you think my business is "weak" by making informed business decisions, but an event coordinator going back on a verbal contract with a company. If you think my company or business practices are "weak", that's fine.

I don't post on many threads anymore but this topic hits a little closer to home for me. The practice of exclusivity in our trade is frowned upon by the hobby. This is because it cuts people out of their bread and butter. You spent all this money to make a name for yourself early on where as the competitor did it over time (by you of admission he has been around longer), you are both invested in your own business. I am a Ball Python breeder and if there were exclusive breeders for shows in he BP world then a lot of people would fail in this hobby. Many vendors have boycotted promoters shows that practice this exclusivity business. I think if you had gone the build you own business route instead of going all gunho in a hurry you would see it in a different light. Think about this 10years from now when you are much more invested in you business and have done 100's of shows, how would you feel if a promoter said " I'm sorry but we are only allowing one feeder vendor at our show". Now take it one farther, that promoter does 6 shows a year in you region and you are cut out of all their shows. It wouldn't bode well for your business now would it?

Just my 2 cents.

 

[ReptileGirl07]

I've posted my experience with professional shows that follow the same procedure. If the show is LARGE, that's one thing. But out of 25 tables having 2 feeder vendors whose business is solely just frozen white mice and rats in bags? That's a little silly.



Additionally, the concern at hand is The Coordinator of the show had a verbal contract with a company in which they spent thousands of money because of.


Then the Coordinator of the show backed out of the verbal agreement once he got all the info and help he wanted and after I spent that type of money.



If he would have said NO straight off the bat, that's one thing, fine, dandy, I'd be alright with it.

It was WRONG to make a commitment and back out, what's next? Promising vendors tables and backing out when someone offers him more money per table?



Lastly, I've been breeding rodents on a small scale for 6 years.

 

[Royal Morphz]

In business there is no such thing as a verbal agreement.

 

[ReptileGirl07]

To the contrary, I took business law while getting my degree and a verbal contract is a legally binding contract, especially in the sate of New York. I also addressed this issue with my attorney back when it first happened, to which she agreed.


Regardless, even if it was not legally binding, in business, does that mean verbal agreements should be taken any more lightly than written ones in business or otherwise?


When people on Fauna trade snakes, do they write up legally binding contract that show a photo of the animals, exact condition of the animal, and further details of the trade before it takes place? (based on what I've read here, no, it's generally either verbally or in email--which at least has a paper trail).


If they do not have this written in a contract and it was all discussed over the phone and email and Vendor A sends a totally different snake valued at hundreds less than the one he originally agreed upon, is Vendor A right (in the clear) because there was no contract (so "prove it")?

Or does it make that person a dishonest vendor and a bad guy??

That's like saying "if you can get away with it, do it, even if it's wrong".



I should have written up a legally binding agreement and had him sign it. I did not, that is my fault.

But that does NOT make the actions he has taken right.

 

[MikeCurtin]

First off, I know this is stretching the anonymous third party rule, but you keep mentioning this "other vendor" that "plays dirty". Can you please identify this vendor so that this board can be the judge of whether you did not want to compete with an unscrupulous vendor, or you did not want to compete with a superior vendor? Does he sell just rodents, or does he have the variety you have available?

Second, if this is a small 25 table show, how in the world did you expect to recoup your expenses anyway? As a breeder that started out with a handful of animals for sale, and grew from there (funded by sales), $2000 seems like a very foolish expenditure for such a small, unproven show.

Lastly, if I was the show coordinator, and received the e-mails you sent, I would be concerned. To have exclusive vending rights, and to have the need to update the coordinator as to all of your purchases, etc., as well as to not have a banner or operable website would call into question your preparedness to be an "exclusive" vendor. If you are unprepared as a vendor, you will not have a profitable show. If you are unprepared as an "exclusive" vendor, that unpreparedness will reflect upon the show and its coordinator.....especially if he had refused a table to a more experienced, proven vendor.

 

[spawn]

First off, I know this is stretching the anonymous third party rule, but you keep mentioning this "other vendor" that "plays dirty". Can you please identify this vendor so that this board can be the judge of whether you did not want to compete with an unscrupulous vendor, or you did not want to compete with a superior vendor? Does he sell just rodents, or does he have the variety you have available?

Mike did you read the emails? The name is posted there. She probably didn't want to type it out to give them anymore business (not to mention they are not really relevant - the thread is about a Reptile Show coordinator going back on his word).

 

[MikeCurtin]

The name is censored out of the e-mails. I know the show is about a coordinator, and not the other vendor, but the way she has gone on about the other vendor's business practices being the reason for her seeking an exclusivity deal is why I consider it relevant.

 

[carrienkashe]

She missed blocking it out in one of the emails in post 4. The name was mentioned twice and she only blocked it out the first time. I tried to copy and paste it here, but it wouldn't let me.

The name is censored out of the e-mails. I know the show is about a coordinator, and not the other vendor, but the way she has gone on about the other vendor's business practices being the reason for her seeking an exclusivity deal is why I consider it relevant.