is usark over stepping its rights by proposing rules for states without asking us

[Taking Up Serpents]

Good post Gary O. Suttle differences in our opinions, but in general the same. It is one thing to be offering constructive critisims and anyone can contact the ARK and give input. But if you don't donate or support, don't complain. It's kind of like if you didn't vote; you can't complain too much about who's in office.
I see it we now have two factions in reagrds to this issue. While both would prefre no regulation; only one is adamant and unbending on that. The other says only if we regulate ourselves and write the rules should we have these laws.
The days of selling african rocks to teenagers just to make a quick buck are over. I see most of the anti-regulation (even if by keeper for keeper) arguments coming from that type that fall in that category. The guys who tell newbies it only gets as big as it's cage. We need to purge them out anyway. Some of their peers in the 'no regs' crowd are not like them and only scared of any government involvement; even if it's just the rule making process. They have been fed things like 'USARK is working with HSUS to compromise' to keep them on egde and that is not right.
If we learn from the past we will see the bird groups (pet and falconry) have drafted regulations for kepers by keepers. Something to consider.

 

[Gary O]

Good post Gary O. Suttle differences in our opinions, but in general the same. It is one thing to be offering constructive critisims and anyone can contact the ARK and give input. But if you don't donate or support, don't complain. It's kind of like if you didn't vote; you can't complain too much about who's in office.
I see it we now have two factions in reagrds to this issue. While both would prefre no regulation; only one is adamant and unbending on that. The other says only if we regulate ourselves and write the rules should we have these laws.
The days of selling african rocks to teenagers just to make a quick buck are over. I see most of the anti-regulation (even if by keeper for keeper) arguments coming from that type that fall in that category. The guys who tell newbies it only gets as big as it's cage. We need to purge them out anyway. Some of their peers in the 'no regs' crowd are not like them and only scared of any government involvement; even if it's just the rule making process. They have been fed things like 'USARK is working with HSUS to compromise' to keep them on egde and that is not right.
If we learn from the past we will see the bird groups (pet and falconry) have drafted regulations for kepers by keepers. Something to consider.

That is the thing bro.... You should not have to pay to be part of it. This guy did pay and he is complaining about something but people that have not paid are telling him he is wrong. So in your way this thread is messed up....

I say membership to fight for our hobby should be free. It cost nothing to send an email out. These people can help in different ways.

Also Andrew was note voted in.... so people will have issues with that in itself.

This was a group built by Andrew and it is our only outlet. There is no choice... The peoples voice really in total does not matter. If Andrew or someone else does not like their view then it is thrown to the side.

Membership to USARK should be FREE. And people DONATE what they CAN if the CAN.... It should not matter if you sent money into the system.

IN The USA.... We have to pay taxes you can choose to vote or not.

USARK you do not get to vote but you are not part of it unless you pay money....

One forces you to pay the other forces the leader on you.....

Not saying it is bad. I am saying somethings also need to change a bit on both sides.

When you represent the people you have to hear the people. It is a must. If you do not have time to hear them then you can not represent them correctly.

We all need to step back and start helping instead of defending. If someone has an idea instead of saying " Andrew did not say it or think of it so it is garbage" think about it and see if it will trully help.


But again.... Membership should not cost. In todays world families are struggling to keep their homes. 10 bucks means the world to them. Does not mean they do not have an opinion. MONEY does not mean you or more important. AND THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE USA!

Also do not think I am 1005 against USARK. I think overall they stand for great things. But I also think the workload is spread to thin and sometimes things are not fought for because there is no time or energy... Or man power

Think about how much opening up membership would help. There might be a group of people that could not pay but could sit at a show and hand out flyers and talk to people.... They could help with a website or ANYTHING.

IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT MONEY

 

[Gary O]

I am going to help in WI as a friend emailed me last night.... I am not doing this for me.... As I no longer own a large snake or a venomous snake. I own 5 snakes total. Everyone here that knows me knows I use to own thousands of animals....

I stand and I will fight because it is the right thing to do.

So I ask everyone... what have you done? What way can you make this system better.

I do not want anyone to feel I am saying this so you follow me... I never want anyone to follow me. I want you all to stand next to me as one voice... One group.... to knock this stuff out of the water........

 

[Gary O]

I offered an opinion that says people can help other ways then sending money. Let me list a few.

1) call Show promoters ask them if they have a USARK or table set up to educate the public on these matters. 99.9% of the time the promoter will let you have the table free if you are not selling anything and it is truly to educate and take donations.

Start an email list for locale education on this. Email lists are old but work. With places like GMAIL. It is so easy to start a list. Have a few people gathering info and sendingit out over a city or county.

Help others that get confused with websites and sending a letter.

Give your opinion on how to make USARK better.

Get meetings going in your area.

The list is endless to things you can do that will not cost you money. And I think that membership to USARK should be free.

In the meeting my friend messaged me about I will be bringing all this up.

We need to get organized. It is not Andrew's fault that we are starting to see things fall apart a bit with info not getting to everyone. He is only one man. We all need to get off our high horse and say it is time to build something that even our own government will say WOW....

The time to do it was yesterday... but we need to do it now.

here is what I think we need.

1) Andrew President of USARK needs to form a USARK Main Board. With atleast 5 to 10 members. Each having a specific Job. Like Treasure, Law, Fund Raising Ect....

2)State level Presidents with board of 5 to 10 people. Set up just like national.

3) Smaller groups with chapter head only. Set up like this
Chapter Head
Members

These chapter heads will make meetings in local areas and they get their infor from state boards. State boards get into from their state and National USARK

This is just a base idea. There is ton that can happen with it and we would be a force to be recon with. We can then have things like Yearling state meetings. And maybe a meeting with the national board every year to at one of the big 5 shows. Shoot with the internet we can not chat face to face and never leave our homes.

The only thing stoping all this is DRIVE on our part

 

[Taking Up Serpents]

I undertsand completely Gary. But we have to fund lobbyist, lawyers, economists that estimated the value of the industry. These thing are not cheap and necessary when battling in DC. Then there is the overhead of travel expenses and stationary. We also can't expect one guy to sacrifice most of his collection and time to do these things without being compensated. Especially if all of the focus is running the organization and he doesn't even have time to work a full time or part time job to make ends. I have donated money and when I was short, I donated animals to the auctions. Zoo Med has matched dollars raised and most of this is on their dime.
When someone buys a new snake for several hundred (especially something like a burm or hot) and then complains about membership fees with USARK it irks me. I'm not saying that's you, not atll friend. But they are out there. Just isn't right in my eyes.
I know of what's going on in WI as well. We may be talking to the same friend as I know fo one guy up there that isgetting seriously involved. Not saying there's only one in WI, just only one person I know.
Like you Gary; it's not about what I have and where I live. It's about my kids and everyone else's having the opportunity we did to keep. Because when I go, they get my animals. I also frirst hand know how keeping reptile scan change one's life for the better, and not by adding to the bank account, but the soul. I don't want that taken away from the next guy or generation. That's why I'm the way I a over things like this. I'm sure others could find more colorful descriptions though.....haha.

 

[Gary O]

We are on the same page. 100%!!!!

I would like to find a way though to open up membership. I know there are people out there that would take advantage of it though. The reason I brought that up is I know of a few keepers that had good jobs. They had lots of animals. Lots to them maybe 10 to 15. They got layed off and had to settle for a less paying job. They had to get rid of animals to make things meet. They have the same drive as we do. They just put their families first when it comes to money.

I just do not want USARk to turn into what the USA government is. Meaning if you do not pay you do not matter.

Just to let everyone know I am not a member of USARK. I fought tooth and nail every time a bill came around. Will I be a member of USARK probably.

We need to get organized. Right now we are not.

I am in the cub scouts right now with my step son. I pay them 20 bucks a year. I see them spend more then 20 bucks a year on my son. But we as a group find ways to raise funds. I know not the same but it then again is. We do a lot of fund raising.

We need to start within if we want the outside to understand.

 

[Kaiyudsai]

Im so sick of hearing people scream about losing there rights... THe Constitution doesnt say anything about giving US citizens the right to own any animal they please..... We arent guaranteed this " right" It isnt a right..... It is a privilege that can and should be taken away if abused..... and when our actions begin to infringe upon the "actual rights" of others..... IE "escaped pets wreaking havoc on a community" then it becomes necessary for big brother to step in..... Unfortunately enough people in our little community have screwed up and created the mess were in today.... Yes reptile stories succumb to media sensationalism easily..... and yes they are an easy platform for politicians to use for a cause..... because theyre snakes... and alot of people fear them..... But thats life and the govenment we have...... The cold hard fact of the matter is..... we would NEVER be facing these issues if idiots hadnt screwed it up for all of us in the past......

Are the big five constrictors Dangerous???

Anyone who says "no" is a complete imbucil and is in denial... .. If a pHd says they arent dangerous then shame on him for using his credentials to give the public a false sense of security..... Let him have a 16 foot retic wrap him up in a feeding accident and then make that comment..... They are most definitely dangerous.... I say that after 16 years of working with retics..... I finally saw the light after getting injured really badly by an adult in an incident that can happen to anyone....... It's kind of like the people that have pet tigers that think they have them tamed ..... they are totally in denial..... Its so easy to get complacent.... especially when you are raising a little baby hatchling and watch it grow...... You get this false sense of security, that you have this special knowlege of these animals that gives you a protection if you will..... but the truth is so far from that.... These are still wild animals... with pretty much one thing on their mind... getting their next meal....

Are plenty of other animals dangerous?? sure.....

Ask yourself this one question..... How would you feel if you had a neighbor that had a bengal tiger in his back yard..... and you had a young child...... would you let your kid play in the back yard???? Do you trust your kids life in the hands of a total stranger... DO you trust the total stranger to keep his tiger in the yard?? I dont see a 20 foot retic as anything different.... II guess I have a change of heart now that I have a little girl..... But suddenly Im more worried about "Our rights to have our children not have to worry about getting eaten by a tropical predator" rather than My "rights to own whatever I so please".........

 

[Gary O]

You can not compare a snake to a tiger or a hosre to a tiger or a horse to a snake....

Why Horses kill more people a year then snakes have in three.........

Cats have killed more kids then snakes have also......

What it is is fear of the unknown.

So I ask you this. People kill more people a year then animals ever have..... When are we banning them.

 

[rodneynboalich]

for the record im not a paying member but i have donated animals for their autions which is basically the same. heres the problem usark and andrew wyatt are the same thing. he is ceo and president. there is no board. we dont have an organization fighting for us we have one guy representing us and a bunch of people sending him money. i will have a a memo in a day or too the was from i believe pijac that was sent to ohio representatives. as soon as i get it i will make it available for everyone.

 

[Gary O]

I do not think Andrew is taking money and not fighting for us. All my ideas are to help him and not put him down. Andrew has not shown any reason to question his morals IMO... I am not saying you can not if you feel the need. I just do not see anything he has done to question his morals.

But anyways.... Lets see where we are in a few weeks

 

[Taking Up Serpents]

USARK board of directors include Jeff Ronne, Ralph Davis, and others. I'm sure Zoo Med has some input as they have matched funds dollar for dollar. USARK has other board members with their chief science officer is Dr Warren Booth. While Andrew is not the only one, he does do majority of the footwork and representation for USARK.

If there was no board they wouldn't hold board meetings at Tinley and symposiums open to the public.

Taken from a USARK newsletter in 8/11-

USARK Board Meeting Open to Public
Make sure you take advantage of the fact that the USARK Board of Directors Meeting will be OPEN TO THE PUBLIC on Friday August 19th at the Daytona Hilton. This will be a great opportunity to see how the Reptile Industry's Trade Association operates. There will be an address from Chairman Gary Bagnall, the CEO's Report from Andrew Wyatt and a presentation from our lead Washington DC and Florida Consultant, Joan Galvin from the firm of Kelley Drye based in New York City and Washington DC. There will also be a question and answer period. Please join us! Everyone is welcome to put in positive feedback.
USARK Board of Directors Meeting: Friday August 19th at the Daytona Hilton. 1-4pm in Executive Board Room "B" on the same floor that the Auction and Turtle Night will be held. Top of the escalator in the North Tower. Hope to see you there!
There Is Strength In Numbers... Join Us & Help Protect Your Rights!

"Andrew has not shown any reason to question his morals IMO... I am not saying you can not if you feel the need. I just do not see anything he has done to question his morals. "
Again I agree with Gary O. Herpin Time on blogtalk radio has a good interview where he explains his background. I can see how some can be stand-offish since he kind of came out of nowhere unlike a well known breeder. But his background with wildlife from reptiles to raptors is just as good as being one of the big breeders.

 

[lauraleellbp]

Im so sick of hearing people scream about losing there rights... THe Constitution doesnt say anything about giving US citizens the right to own any animal they please..... We arent guaranteed this " right" It isnt a right..... It is a privilege that can and should be taken away if abused..... and when our actions begin to infringe upon the "actual rights" of others..... IE "escaped pets wreaking havoc on a community" then it becomes necessary for big brother to step in..... Unfortunately enough people in our little community have screwed up and created the mess were in today.... Yes reptile stories succumb to media sensationalism easily..... and yes they are an easy platform for politicians to use for a cause..... because theyre snakes... and alot of people fear them..... But thats life and the govenment we have...... The cold hard fact of the matter is..... we would NEVER be facing these issues if idiots hadnt screwed it up for all of us in the past......

Are the big five constrictors Dangerous???

Anyone who says "no" is a complete imbucil and is in denial... .. If a pHd says they arent dangerous then shame on him for using his credentials to give the public a false sense of security..... Let him have a 16 foot retic wrap him up in a feeding accident and then make that comment..... They are most definitely dangerous.... I say that after 16 years of working with retics..... I finally saw the light after getting injured really badly by an adult in an incident that can happen to anyone....... It's kind of like the people that have pet tigers that think they have them tamed ..... they are totally in denial..... Its so easy to get complacent.... especially when you are raising a little baby hatchling and watch it grow...... You get this false sense of security, that you have this special knowlege of these animals that gives you a protection if you will..... but the truth is so far from that.... These are still wild animals... with pretty much one thing on their mind... getting their next meal....

Are plenty of other animals dangerous?? sure.....

Ask yourself this one question..... How would you feel if you had a neighbor that had a bengal tiger in his back yard..... and you had a young child...... would you let your kid play in the back yard???? Do you trust your kids life in the hands of a total stranger... DO you trust the total stranger to keep his tiger in the yard?? I dont see a 20 foot retic as anything different.... II guess I have a change of heart now that I have a little girl..... But suddenly Im more worried about "Our rights to have our children not have to worry about getting eaten by a tropical predator" rather than My "rights to own whatever I so please".........

IMO unless more keepers publicly adopt and encourage this attitude of respect for the exotic critters we keep, we're all apt to lose our privileges.

Questioning is one thing. I'm notorious for asking questions, myself.

Questioning in such a way as to shove a predetermined agenda down other peoples' throats is something else, however, and promotes knee-jerk counter-reaction rather than rational conversation.

 

[rodneynboalich]

USARK board of directors include Jeff Ronne, Ralph Davis, and others. I'm sure Zoo Med has some input as they have matched funds dollar for dollar. USARK has other board members with their chief science officer is Dr Warren Booth. While Andrew is not the only one, he does do majority of the footwork and representation for USARK.

If there was no board they wouldn't hold board meetings at Tinley and symposiums open to the public.

Taken from a USARK newsletter in 8/11-

USARK Board Meeting Open to Public
Make sure you take advantage of the fact that the USARK Board of Directors Meeting will be OPEN TO THE PUBLIC on Friday August 19th at the Daytona Hilton. This will be a great opportunity to see how the Reptile Industry's Trade Association operates. There will be an address from Chairman Gary Bagnall, the CEO's Report from Andrew Wyatt and a presentation from our lead Washington DC and Florida Consultant, Joan Galvin from the firm of Kelley Drye based in New York City and Washington DC. There will also be a question and answer period. Please join us! Everyone is welcome to put in positive feedback.
USARK Board of Directors Meeting: Friday August 19th at the Daytona Hilton. 1-4pm in Executive Board Room "B" on the same floor that the Auction and Turtle Night will be held. Top of the escalator in the North Tower. Hope to see you there!
There Is Strength In Numbers... Join Us & Help Protect Your Rights!

"Andrew has not shown any reason to question his morals IMO... I am not saying you can not if you feel the need. I just do not see anything he has done to question his morals. "
Again I agree with Gary O. Herpin Time on blogtalk radio has a good interview where he explains his background. I can see how some can be stand-offish since he kind of came out of nowhere unlike a well known breeder. But his background with wildlife from reptiles to raptors is just as good as being one of the big breeders.

Gary Bagnall is ceo and founder of zoomeds. he said he would make up $100,000 in donations. so we see why he gets a say. Dr Warren Booth is one of andrews friends from NC.

that really dosnt sound like much of a board to me considering they are meeting at the daytona hilton. which im guessing they were all there for the daytona show not a an official board meeting.

 

[rodneynboalich]

i think the biggest problem with our fight is how we are going about it. look at how well hsus dose it. they are bringing in a lot of money. they are getting out there and promoting themselves. the hire spies. they do get fox news to go to reptiles shows. and what has usark done to counter this. nothing they talk about facts that an uninformed society dosnt care about. me a a few other are going to try and put together a plan for fighting them. keep in mind we know they are a joke and they really dont care about animals. all they care about is money so if we start costing them money they will leave us alone. heres a few ideas we are looking at.

1 when you see there adds on tv to donate to help animals call and get them on the phone and talk to them for as long as you can. the longer you keep them on the line thats less people being able to call in and make a donation. tell them your worried about send in money because you worried it mite not go to help animals and would like to donate supplies and ask them were you can drop them off. that will really irritate them because they will have to tell you they dont have any shelters to donate food too. and go to humane watch and gets some facts to ask them about like why do they only spend .5% of the donates on helping animals. i think it was a good idea for usark to have us call our representatives. if we find out they are having a call in fundraiser having us call in and tie up their lines would cost them a lot of money. we can also go protest any of their events and get some airtime.

2 call your local spca and talk to them about hsus. im going to look into getting some pamphlets made for spca's to hand out with information about donations to them verses so called nonprofits. we also need to get these pamphlets to pet stores to hand out and we can hand them out at shows. and send them with our letters to our representatives.

3 usark can take some of that money and run some commercial talking about donating to hsus and talk about where they spend their money.

4 i beleive hsus is a 501c3 or 503 nonprofit and there are a lot of rules to be albe to file as as 503 with the irs. but if they are not operation as a 503 they can get fined and it will also cause people that donate not to write off their donation for taxes and if people cant write off donations they wont give as much or at all. this issue is currently being looked into. this will be huge if we find a violation.

5 usark needs to start showing the reptiles industry in a more positive light. we need to make some donations to spca's and other nonprofits animal shelters and get the shelters to go on record and say hsus is isnt helping them and the reptile industry had to come to the rescue. we need to do the same media stunts hsus are doing.

6 we need to go after their big contributors and tell them what hsus is doing with their money. and we need to threaten these contributors with boycotts and protest. a good example would be ellen degeneres. a year or so ago i saw she was doing a deal with hsus and donating part of her proceeds from her new book to hsus. if we would have protested her for promoting a organization that isnt doing what it claims to be doing and mite be involved in illegal activities, she mite have pulled the deal and other people thinking of working with hsus mite reconsider if its going to be a pr nightmare.

hsus brings in $100,000,000 in donations. our goal should be to try and cut that number in half for 2012.

6 usark needs to offer up rewards for incriminating information on hsus. how great would it be if we got a pic of wayne pacelle eating a big steak or a pic of him at sea world or something like that. we also need join their forums and set up fake profiles and and try to stir up problems within their community. divide and conquer. we have been fighting fair and we need to stop because its getting us nowhere. if anybody is interested in doing any of this send me a message on here and ill try to get you as much info as i can to start the fight

 

[Cat_72]

As always, Gary, you seem to be offering up excellent posts with some well thought-out and rational ideas...and inspiring some productive conversation. Thank you for that.

In re-reading my own posts, I see where it appears that my thoughts on the issue may be narrow minded, and I do apologize for perhaps my thoughts are not so clear. My only excuse is that when I read posts like this one:

the only places usark should be proposing these kinda rulse is places like NY where there is a ban so people that are already keeping animals can get some kinda license instead of being considered criminals. thats the only time its ok to compromise when its for getting back you freedoms not for loosing them.

...it makes me a little crazy, lol. It is thought like THAT - "We cannot allow ANY sort of compromise until it is too late" - that does it. I was not in any way saying that USARK is the be-all end-all in this, only that Rodney's way of thinking is fatally flawed, and that we should be thankful that these folks are out there doing what they are doing for us. Does this mean that we shouldn't have any input, and just blindly support everything they do? No. My point is that we should ALL be out there doing whatever we can do, and taking it upon ourselves to speak up and provide that input to those who really matter, and have the time and ability to make our voices count.

Standing by and screaming about being unwilling to compromise only makes the opposing school of thought dig in their feet and refuse to compromise as well, in my experience. A group of people who are willing to respectfully take a stand, yet be willing to intelligently and rationally discuss, and be willing to negotiate some sort of compromise ONLY if needed is what is going to keep us from losing our animals entirely. USARK is doing their best to do that.

If you like what they are doing, don't sit around and throw a bunch of crazy claims, complaints, rants, and gibberish out on an internet forum...get your head out of your posterior, get your facts straight. Be willing to actually HEAR what others have to say, and keep your mind open to learning from them...and THEN make your voice heard, before it is too late.

 

[Lucille]

Standing by and screaming about being unwilling to compromise only makes the opposing school of thought dig in their feet and refuse to compromise as well, in my experience. A group of people who are willing to respectfully take a stand, yet be willing to intelligently and rationally discuss, and be willing to negotiate some sort of compromise ONLY if needed is what is going to keep us from losing our animals entirely. USARK is doing their best to do that.

Very well said. Sometimes, we need someone (like you) to remind us that we all have a common goal. Digging in feet isn't productive, rational discussion is.

 

[Cat_72]

*Eh, in my last paragraph there, it should say, "If you DON'T like what they are doing"...sheesh.

 

[Cat_72]

Very well said. Sometimes, we need someone (like you) to remind us that we all have a common goal. Digging in feet isn't productive, rational discussion is.

Thank you, Lucille.

 

[Taking Up Serpents]

Rodney- You said there is no board and Andrew takes in money himself and sets policy by himself. That was totally false. Now there's a problem with where and when they meet. Never mind it was open to the public. What's the problem with having a meeting ata large reptile show? We are reptile keepers!
HSUS lies and deceives donors to get their funds. The name itself is set to confuse people thinking it's an umbrella group for local shelters. Same thing with ASPCA and local spca. We do not need to follow their lead on anything. They even violate their own charter by lobbying.
1- I have been on the Humanewatch page for over a year now. They have their campaign and it's good. But guess how many times HW put up information on HSUS anti-exotic policy? None. They get into shelters, horses, dog breeder and agriculture areas. But they don't get into the exotics issues. If anyone here has watched their FB page for the past year they will see it is mainly 3 guys who post that information there in regards to exotics. Specifically reptiles. REXANO is another good place more our liking. That's not to say the enemy of my enemy is not my friend. HW is leading the charge against HSUS. But we don't reference them when using facts against anti-reptile keepers. We have our own scientific sources. You just have to go look for them.
2- Again, good idea. But I still see it as a HW campaign. Not an ARK campaign. It would drain resources from higher priority cases such as lobbying and putting people like Mr Barker in front of a regulatory affairs committee. (What was that about USARK doing nothing again?) We must focus on these efforts and not just a discrediting campaign against HSUS and Born Free. That would just make a civil debate with politicians intoa Jerry Springer episode with AR extremists. See what I mean?
3- What channel would run an ARK commercial. Heads in the right place, but it has been considered. Also considered was getting on radio or tv shows to talk about the issues. Again, money we don't have though. AKC has done okay in their fights and do not run commercials. Street teaming like I used to do for local and regional bands would be more efficient. Flyers not just for ARK but reptile radio shows that show insight to the industry. Raising awareness in any way is good but we have to stay within our means. I have friend looking into making new USARK stickers. The old ones faded fats if on a car.
4- Frank Losey is working on that 501c investigation involving IRS fraud and possible laundering charges seeing as they have to bail out HSI every year and have the HSLF and a school HSU. FBI is also looking in on RICO charges and where they paid the guy to testify against Ringling Bros. The heat is on them and it makes me grin like a possum eatin a yellow jacket!
5- USARK is showing a positive and responsible keeper to the ones that count the most; law makers. They are the ones that matter as they are the ones who decide to pass, veto or amend a bill. They are the ones we have to convince that the majority of us a good people and great keepers with concerns for human and animal safety. You and I can handle the public every day we go out with our "insert snake breeder here" bumper sticker, t-shirt or ball cap. When they ask, tell them the truth about keeping reptiles. Educating the public is our responsibility. Every keeper has done it when they tell family and friends about their passion. And it doesn't cost a dime. Hell, you get me talkin herps and I can't stop half the time!
6- Humanewatch. Not a lot of keepers watch Ellen anyway. I used to like Killswitch Engage and Rob Zombie. Once I found out they support PETA; no more. Same for Lamb Of God. But most of their stuff sounds the same anyway. Getting into boycotting is good. But I have heard fellow keepers say they will still buy tickets to Zombie's movies, shows and download albums because they like them so much. To that I reply "must like him more than your snakes huh?" Because ol Robby ain't gettin crap out of me. And I listened to White Zombie since '93. Hate it...but I like my snakes more than him.
On the contrary I would like to see more people like Kerry King from Slayer advocate for us, as he is a big snake keeper. Slash from GNR used to keep to, if he still doesn't.
The other 6- Humanewatch. I have been blocked form regular HSUS pages. But other support pages won't block unless FB TOS are violated. Trust me; they regretted that. But I never set up fake accounts as they do. I find any tactic of their s distasteful. I will mnot compromise integrity to get a rise out of them. Getting some of the supporters they suckered in comes with simply telling the truth. Others higher in the ranks and actually extreme always use the same cop outs when presented with facts "wild animals belong in the wild". To which I say 'True. That's why I buy only captive bred as we have advocated since the late 90s. And captive breeding decreases the pressure on wild species." Man they hate that. Truth is habitat loss endangers more species than the live trade.

I have kicked around the idea of a group with other similar to what you propose. Just to inform and fight AR lies. Reptile Owners Against Animal Rights, if you will. That's one thing we all are united on, (keepers, farmers, hunters) fighting AR.

 

[rodneynboalich]

As always, Gary, you seem to be offering up excellent posts with some well thought-out and rational ideas...and inspiring some productive conversation. Thank you for that.

In re-reading my own posts, I see where it appears that my thoughts on the issue may be narrow minded, and I do apologize for perhaps my thoughts are not so clear. My only excuse is that when I read posts like this one:



...it makes me a little crazy, lol. It is thought like THAT - "We cannot allow ANY sort of compromise until it is too late" - that does it. I was not in any way saying that USARK is the be-all end-all in this, only that Rodney's way of thinking is fatally flawed, and that we should be thankful that these folks are out there doing what they are doing for us. Does this mean that we shouldn't have any input, and just blindly support everything they do? No. My point is that we should ALL be out there doing whatever we can do, and taking it upon ourselves to speak up and provide that input to those who really matter, and have the time and ability to make our voices count.

Standing by and screaming about being unwilling to compromise only makes the opposing school of thought dig in their feet and refuse to compromise as well, in my experience. A group of people who are willing to respectfully take a stand, yet be willing to intelligently and rationally discuss, and be willing to negotiate some sort of compromise ONLY if needed is what is going to keep us from losing our animals entirely. USARK is doing their best to do that.

If you like what they are doing, don't sit around and throw a bunch of crazy claims, complaints, rants, and gibberish out on an internet forum...get your head out of your posterior, get your facts straight. Be willing to actually HEAR what others have to say, and keep your mind open to learning from them...and THEN make your voice heard, before it is too late.

im suggesting usark going to NY because they have a ban and need to work on getting that over turned im not saying we should just sit around until one happens and then fight it. the reason im for no compromise is because there is no real issue to compromise on. the whole issue is made up. so your recommending we compromise with people that invented a problem out of thin air. its idiotic that we would even entertain the idea, not to mention the people pushing for it (hsus and people they paid to push it) are breaking laws to get their agenda through. and these are the people you want to compromise with, liars and thieves scamming the american people out of $100,000,000 a year that gos right into their pockets.

compromise is not the solution. fighting back is and bring criminals actions into the light is what we need to do.

as for me not liking what usark is doing. i think i needed to post my issues on this forum. keep in mind i wnet to andrew wyatt about it and he just ban me from his facebook page and wouldnt answer any of my questions. dont you find it odd that as much as has been said neither usark or andrew wyatt has came on here to address it. and not a single one of you has yet to address the issue i raised about usark setting up model legislation with out talking to the people that will be affected by it. would anybody like to comment on that. as for be willing to hear what others have to say how am i supposed to do that when your just ignored and when all i am hearing is you peoples opinoins which is pretty much saying just dont question usark get in line and just accept what they say. sorry im not that kind of person. you all keep saying i need to listen to your opinions but your not really offering up an explanations as to why they are right.

you say we need regulations to avoid loosing our rights to keep our animals. you say we need regulations so when something bad happens they wont ban our animals whats your proof that any of this is true.

this is what i know. we have an insane ar organization throwing millions at politicians to ban animals. we had FL calling for out right bans after a two year old was killed and FL already had some of the strictest laws in the country. so here in reality it would seem that everything your saying is the opposite of your hypothetical projections of what regulations will bring about. you tell me to listen. im telling you to think to think for yourselves and not just repeat what you hear