When to cull, need advice please

[Montoya]

I have a ball that hatched at the end of July. She would not eat and I let her go for about 6 weeks after shed and tried different feeding methods with no luck. I had to pinky pusk three times and she still would eat on her own. She was still pretty thin so I decided to try a smaller mouse hopper and had to manually feed that. The snake has not struck or killed a rodent yet and will not initiate a feeding response on its own. It has got to the point where I can PK a hopper and begin to push and close the mouth down on it and she will continue to eat it if left alone.

The snake has not entered a second shed yet and recently had its first poop. My question is, at what point do you decide the snake is just not going to thrive and put it down? I don't want give up on her too soon but this has been going on for some time now. I was hoping she would begin to eat PK on her own by now.

Each season, I usually have two or three that have difficulty starting on their own, but I have never had one like this before. I would like hear hear your thoughts on this, especially from those who have had to deal with this situation before.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I have a ball that hatched at the end of July. She would not eat and I let her go for about 6 weeks after shed and tried different feeding methods with no luck. I had to pinky pusk three times and she still would eat on her own. She was still pretty thin so I decided to try a smaller mouse hopper and had to manually feed that. The snake has not struck or killed a rodent yet and will not initiate a feeding response on its own. It has got to the point where I can PK a hopper and begin to push and close the mouth down on it and she will continue to eat it if left alone.

The snake has not entered a second shed yet and recently had its first poop. My question is, at what point do you decide the snake is just not going to thrive and put it down? I don't want give up on her too soon but this has been going on for some time now. I was hoping she would begin to eat PK on her own by now.

Each season, I usually have two or three that have difficulty starting on their own, but I have never had one like this before. I would like hear hear your thoughts on this, especially from those who have had to deal with this situation before.

Since my first attempt at force-feeding (and the resound online thrashing that I received), I have culled any animal that didn't feed within a time-frame set by me after 3 assist feedings. Only if I planned to keep the animal myself did I do a lot more to keep them stable.

 

[Focal]

Interested in the responses. I am in a similar situation with one.

 

[bkline]

i agree, maybe 3times at most,but i try everthing,baby asfs, baby mice, baby rats, different tubs,etc

 

[Montoya]

Since my first attempt at force-feeding (and the resound online thrashing that I received), I have culled any animal that didn't feed within a time-frame set by me after 3 assist feedings. Only if I planned to keep the animal myself did I do a lot more to keep them stable.

Thanks Deborah. On the ones you kept, did they work through the issue successfully? She was part of a group that all were intended to be held back.

i agree, maybe 3times at most,but i try everthing,baby asfs, baby mice, baby rats, different tubs,etc

I have tried rats, mice, day feeding, night feeding, position in the rack. I don't have access to asf so I haven't tried that. She is alarmed every time a live rodent is placed in. I have left rat pups and mouse fuzzies and also a pre killed hopper in overnight. She eats if you put it in her mouth but won't touch it on her own. I have never failed in starting a ball on food before and it sucks

 

[deborahbroadus]

Thanks Deborah. On the ones you kept, did they work through the issue successfully? She was part of a group that all were intended to be held back.

I have tried rats, mice, day feeding, night feeding, position in the rack. I don't have access to asf so I haven't tried that. She is alarmed every time a live rodent is placed in. I have left rat pups and mouse fuzzies and also a pre killed hopper in overnight. She eats if you put it in her mouth but won't touch it on her own. I have never failed in starting a ball on food before and it sucks

Yes, in fact, one of the original twins that was part of my decision not to force an animal to eat too far beyond their ability to feed on their own, survived and was a great eater.

 

[GREGORY J HALL]

I have a ball that hatched at the end of July. She would not eat and I let her go for about 6 weeks after shed and tried different feeding methods with no luck. I had to pinky pusk three times and she still would eat on her own. She was still pretty thin so I decided to try a smaller mouse hopper and had to manually feed that. The snake has not struck or killed a rodent yet and will not initiate a feeding response on its own. It has got to the point where I can PK a hopper and begin to push and close the mouth down on it and she will continue to eat it if left alone.

The snake has not entered a second shed yet and recently had its first poop. My question is, at what point do you decide the snake is just not going to thrive and put it down? I don't want give up on her too soon but this has been going on for some time now. I was hoping she would begin to eat PK on her own by now.

Each season, I usually have two or three that have difficulty starting on their own, but I have never had one like this before. I would like hear hear your thoughts on this, especially from those who have had to deal with this situation before.

keep forcing fuzzes till she grows & goes on her own have had a few like that they will take it eventually

 

[GREGORY J HALL]

I take fuzzies decencent size & force them past their rear most jaw they will eat it then they will grow then they will one day just start eating Ive had this happen twice took over 10 feedings this way but it worked & survied & thrieved

 

[snakesRkewl]

We've had to assist feed several snakes 7-8 times before they started eating on their own, they will eventually take off and do fine.
I have yet to have an assist fed hatchling that needed to be put down.

I do think you waited too long, if any of our hatchlings go 4 weeks after first shed without a feeding response they get assist fed.
Out of 80+ hatchlings this season we had 5 stubborn ones, 2 that took 8 assist feeds, they are doing very well now eating on their own.

 

[RJK890]

Culling is my business... and business is Good.

I am not opposed to culling, but do not cull slow starters.

We never offer food until after the hatchlings have had their first shed.
Our clutches are kept together in a 6qt. tub with newspaper and a water bowl, and left inside the incubator until they have all shed out.
They are then set up individually in our hatchling rack.
Each one gets a 6qt. tub with newspaper and a water bowl.

We wait 2-3 days after setting them up, and then offer a fresh live rat pink.
(We breed our own rodents, and try to get pinks that are still coated with birthing blood for this feeding.)
The pink is presented first, and then is left in the tub overnight.
Most eat, some don't.

The snakes that don't eat have their tub cleaned and fresh water given, are given a PVC reducer as a hide, and are then left alone for 3-4 days until the next feeding.

The second feeding is also presented first, and then left in the tub overnight.
If the tub already has a hide in it, the pink is left in the hide.

Any tub that still has a pink in it the following morning receives a hide if it does not already have one, and the pink is again presented before being removed.
Those tubs are taken care of, and the animals are left alone for 3-4 days before being offered their third meal.

Third meal is done exactly the same as the first, and second meals.

On the fourth feeding attempt, any animal that has taken three consecutive meals is presented a f/t, or p/k pink.
If they don't take it, they are given a live pink.

Any snake that has not taken a meal at that point, and refuses their fourth meal after having it left in the tub overnight, is assist fed the following morning.
Their next meals are presented, left in the tub overnight, and then assist fed the following morning if they are not eaten.
I have never had an animal need more then three meals assist fed, before they took off on their own.

Once an animal takes it's fifth consecutive meal, it is made available for sale/trade, or moved over to our holdback rack.

I would probably only assist feed an animal about 3-5 times, unless it was going to be a holdback.

After that point, I would try every trick in the book to get them to eat, (braining, mouse pinks/crawlers, brown bag, KFC grease, raised temps...) and would attempt to feed them every 3-4 days.

It would then be their choice to thrive, or expire.

 

[Montoya]

Yes, in fact, one of the original twins that was part of my decision not to force an animal to eat too far beyond their ability to feed on their own, survived and was a great eater.

Thank you, thats encouraging.

I take fuzzies decencent size & force them past their rear most jaw they will eat it then they will grow then they will one day just start eating Ive had this happen twice took over 10 feedings this way but it worked & survied & thrieved

It is being assist fed an appropriate size hoppper right now.

We've had to assist feed several snakes 7-8 times before they started eating on their own, they will eventually take off and do fine.
I have yet to have an assist fed hatchling that needed to be put down.

I do think you waited too long, if any of our hatchlings go 4 weeks after first shed without a feeding response they get assist fed.
Out of 80+ hatchlings this season we had 5 stubborn ones, 2 that took 8 assist feeds, they are doing very well now eating on their own.

Your right, I may have waited a bit long on this one. I usually gauge it on the snakes look and weight loss before assisting or forcing a pink. I wont do it unless I feel it's absolutely necessary. I think it's very stressing on the snake and I feel there is a difference between assisting and forcing. It was force fed 4 times in the begining and assist fed the last 3 times. I am at a point where I must consider how much longer this goes on and whether there may be an issue with her.

 

[Montoya]

That was a great post Robert, thanks for taking the time to write it.

Right now I consider my girl a no starter versus a slow starter after 7 feedings. One thing that worries me though is this was the first clutch last season. When I started the incubator I accidently had it set to 93. The temp in the egg box was 92.5 for 15 hours or so. Although every egg hatched and none of the siblings had any problems, she may have been affected by this.

Based on what I see here, I will continue to assist through December and give her until the end of January to eat on her own. If she doesn't eat by then, I will put her down. I don't want to watch her waste away and die slowly.

Hopefully a few more feedings will do the trick. Thanks for all the input.

 

[scratchypen]

Robert, great informational post! Craig, I would try a frozen thawed mouse fuzzy and leave it in overnight. you could also try the paper bag trick. my baby son is on my lap and trying to ruin my computer so cant type much more then this. sorry

 

[hhmoore]

(This response is not specific to BPs)
Culling is a part of breeding, and you will find a few recurrent thought processes if you talk to enough people. IMO, serious deformities should be culled...none of this seeing if they can make it stuff. Minor kinks, slightly offsized eyes, scale deformities, etc are a somewhat different story - I have no problem with them going to "pet only" homes, nor do I have an issue with a breeder that chooses to cull them. I have done both. It can be nearly impossible to say with certainty whether a defect is due to genetics or incubation, so I'm not a big fan of the "won't affect breeding" comments.

A slow starter, non feeder, failure to thrive etc is a somewhat different subject, but there are still different approaches. Some breeders will make every effort to ensure that every baby survives, others take a more callous approach - essentially "eat or die". Again, I have done both...and with varied results. Some babies are simply not going to survive. I have force fed a baby for 5 months, then assist fed for another 3...the baby started feeding on its own, but died a few months later of no obvious cause. I have taken similar efforts with another baby, and it is still in my possession years later. There are arguments for not force/assist feeding - primarily the desire to sell/breed the strongest and most problem free animals possible; sometimes it is a time investment vs odds thing. I won't deny that, sometimes, finances are part of the decision making - most of us are more willing to put the time and effort into a $1000 snake than we are a $10 snake. All about the money? Not really - I'd say it is a realistic decision based on the value of our time.

I had a litter of Western Diamondback rattlesnakes years ago...born fairly late in the year. About half of them started easily. Had I been in a position to do so at the time, I probably would have just cooled the others down for 8-10 weeks & tried again after warm up...instead, I played the game. Different prey items, then forcefeeding. I decided that a few of them weren't worth the aggravation that they were causing, and they ended up as alligator food.

Ultimately, it is the decision of the breeder...and I don't think they should have to answer to anybody's moral judgement if they cull. On that subject, though, I bet we could start one heck of a debate on the topic of automatically culling normal male (BP) babies, lol.

 

[Ultimate Pythons]

I would have to agree 100% with (hhmoore)

Although I have a very strong love for animals in general and hate to see any animal culled, as breeders it is something that we must come to terms with. Not every baby is going to be born perfect unfortuanitly. Good luck with what ever you decide.

 

[RobNJ]

I have not had to cull to date, but think I'd be able to do so decisively should I see the need. The biggest worry I have about producing a snake that is deformed or otherwise not fit to be a future breeder is, how do you ensure it goes to a "pet only" home? When it comes to breeding BP's(or any animal really), so many people just see $$$$ with little to no regard for the animal or the impact of breeding an unfit animal and selling the offspring, and are willing to put on any front to get their hands on those animals for free or at incredibly steep discounts. I really don't see a fool proof way to ensure whose hands the animal ends up in.

 

[Royal Morphz]

I have a pastel pied that had this issue.I had to assist for 5 weeks. Then I went to NV for TG holiday and they didn't get fed for 2 weeks. I tossed in a fuzzy rats and she struck and I was greedy and tossed in another the next day and she struck. This week I tossed in one and she took hit then yesterday I put in another and it took her awhile but she took it. Now mind you I have been leaving her alone so as to not mess up her routine. I looked at her this morning and she is going into her 2nd ever shed, she is 3 months old.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I have not had to cull to date, but think I'd be able to do so decisively should I see the need. The biggest worry I have about producing a snake that is deformed or otherwise not fit to be a future breeder is, how do you ensure it goes to a "pet only" home? When it comes to breeding BP's(or any animal really), so many people just see $$$$ with little to no regard for the animal or the impact of breeding an unfit animal and selling the offspring, and are willing to put on any front to get their hands on those animals for free or at incredibly steep discounts. I really don't see a fool proof way to ensure whose hands the animal ends up in.

In the long run, there isn't. That's why the breeders that see the "big picture," and not the ones ruled by emotions...are usually the ones that vote most often for "culling."

***This is just a generality..

 

[MrBig]

Not going to chime in again on the whole culling issue, I've stated that there are times when it's going to need to be done and if people don't have the heart to do it then they shouldn't be breeding.

I have found that trouble feeders who have gone from forced to assist but still won't strike; respond best when pissed off. I will take as large of a prey that still won't bite (ie. eyes closed hopper) and dangle it so that the feet just barely touch the snake. I will keep raising and lowering the prey so that it barely touches. Normally I get a strike as a result. Hopes this helps and everything works out.

 

[Montoya]

I wanted to take the time to thank all those who provided advice and feedback regarding the topic. Shortly after posting the thread she entered a shed. After her shed, I felt enough effort had been taken with her that I would no longer assist feed her.

She refused to eat the week after shed but I left a hopper in on the 30th overnight that she took sometime in the early morning hours. I put another hopper in this morning and she took it after about 30 minutes.

I am comfortable that she is making good progress here and will pick up some much needed weight. I will evaluate her over the next few months to see what to do with her in the future.

I am so much happier with this result than the alternative. Again, thanks for the assistance. Here is a picture of the reluctant little feeder.