What do you think shows a good vendor at shows?

[CheriS]

The other thread about the F.I.R.E. show in orlando made me think about something else, the vendors and their displays.

Personally, I will not buy from vendor/breeders that allow their animals to be handled by others. I always recommend this to others and explain why. They can have the nicest looking animals at the show and it just makes me cringe to see hand after hand dipping into tanks and moving to the next table to do the same thing.

I know entire colonies that were wiped out from a vendor taking some animals to shows and allowing them handled by the public then taken back home and in a week to 10 days their collection dropping dead.

I also recommend that others look to dealers that do display hand sanitizers and MAKE people use it that are serious about buying an animal. Vendors that have their animals individual displayed in deli cups and allow people to handle those are *smart* in my book and they're telling me they care about the animals others may buy and try to assure it goes from their home to the next with the best possible chance of survival. I also recommed looking for dealers that give caresheet hand outs and history of diets and routines, if they don't have the time to make them up... did they have the time to properly care for the animals to begin with?

I saw VERY few vendors displaying that way or with hand sanitizers....... very disappointing

 

[bpc]

What shows a good vendor?

For me, it would have to be having the animal I'm looking for, in good condition, and fairly priced. Personally, I think it's great when vendors allow people to handle the animals. But you're right hand sanitizer is a must. I will not purchase overpriced animals no matter what type of guarantee they come with or how nicely they are displayed. But, I not a newbie, I've been doing this for almost 12 years.

Personally, I'd rather pay X$ for an animal I think is healthy than 5X$ dollars for the same animal with a guarantee.

Personally, I think large expensive displays a nice to look at, but at the same time I wonder how much is that $5000-10,000 display adding to the cost of the animals on the table.

Personally, I don't put much stock in names. I won't pay extra for a snake from Bob Clark (or anyone else) when Bob Jones 2 spaces down has the same thing for $100 less.

 

[WebSlave]

To be quite honest, it has been my policy for as long as I can remember to not allow ANYONE to handle my animals. As long as that animal belongs to me, no one else can touch it. Period. I will handle it for you, but I don't know where your hands have been before you walked up to my tables. And yes, I have lost some sales because of this policy, but I feel the tradeoff is fair enough for my piece of mind.

As for the hand cleansers, get real. I have a gallon jug of Rocal, which is an industrial strength hospital antibiotic cleanser. The directions recommend that this stuff stay on the surface needing to be sanitized for a MINIMUM of 20 minutes in order to be effective. It also warns DO NOT get this stuff on your skin, or damage may result.

Does anyone see the conflict in the above paragraph? It is extremely doubtful that the clear liquid in those little bottles is going to do much more than be a "feel good" solution to the people using them. Yeah, it may kill some pathogens, but ALL of them? And no, that's not good enough for you to handle my animals.

My opinion, of course, but one you'll have a hard time shaking me from.

 

[Seamus Haley]

One easy way to clear up some of the handling situation that I have seen used a few times by a few vendors on a few occasions...

Use clear delis for the animals (I like deli display cases too, but some people just have too much stock to use 'em) and supply, on the table, a few of those high powered maginfying glasses with the flourescent tubes around the lower edge (usually on hinged arms and with clamp mounts for lab tables/countertops).

It allows people to see the animals in a manner that is detailed and well lit (Shows a confidence in your quality), the deli cups will prevent the animals from being handled directly and if they really feel a need to see the vent, you can always take it out and handle it (with the magnifying glass) for their inspection... It's not a perfect solution, as you might end up handling your animals more times than is really needed... but an extra minute or two to talk to each interested customer increases the likelihood of sales by a signifigant (although unpredictable) percent, so it pays off long term.

 

[bpc]

Rich, clinical studies have shown that hand sanitizers are more effective than soap and water. I think that is probaly because you must rub your hands together for several seconds in order to make the stuff evaporate. Between the fingers, front, back etc. Plus it's just so much easier.

As far as the pathogens passing to the snakes, I know you let people handle the deli cups, and those pathogens could just as easily be transferred to the cups, then to your hands and then to the snakes. In fact, some could even crawl, squiggle, squirm, etc. thier way into the cups on thier own.

The fact of the matter is, these pathogens are usually/mostly transferred by fecal matter and various other bodily fluids. They do not do well out in the open, and hand sanitizer does take care of most of the stuff. Everything, no. But most. Our animals are really not in anymore more danger than we are while we're in the building.

If they do catch something they have an immune system just like us in order to fight it off. People have somewhat warped views of disease processes. Take AIDS for example, everyone worries about AIDS. Most people wear condoms to protect themselves for AIDS. AIDS is deadly, and you can get it from having sex. That makes headlines! Few people worry about HPV (human papilloma virus), many have not even heard of it (at least not by that name). Most people have heard of genital warts. Most people think only "dirty people" have them. Most people think they could tell if someone had them. Others think that that condom they are wearing preotects them from everything. HPV requires only skin to skin contact (condoms don't cover everything). HPV is incurable. HPV flairs up and then goes away (so you can't tell by looking). AND recent studies state that approximately 25%(!!!!!!!!!!) of sexually active Americans have HPV. It won't kill ya so it doesn't make headlines. Might make your pecker look a little funny though.

We hear tons about IBD. Deadly stuff. But if you think about it, improper husbandry kills far more animals each year than IBD. Common diseases like mouth rot, and respiratory infections kill more. We hear more about IBD because its a death sentence to your entire collection and hence your business. Truthfully speaking the chances of your animals catching IBD are pretty low (THANKFULLY). The chances of your animal catching a URI is pretty good, but most of that comes from being transported, caged, and cared for improperly while at the show.

 

[gcsreptiles]

I am attracted to vendors that are freindly (not pushy), with clean, organized tables, displays and animals. I'm more apt to buy from a small breeder rather than a large broker or larger company with tons of animals they have no idea about.

I do not let people touch my animals or deli cups unless they are buying it. I will pick it up for you and let you look at it all you want to, but you're not touching it until you are ready to buy it. I don't care if there's hand sanitizer or not. Call me paranoid, but with the amount of money I have tied up in my collection, tough. I can understand that people want to see the animal they're interested in and inspect it for flaws (see with your eyes not your hands), but all these people have to do is talk to me (or any vendor), ask questions, see how knowledgable they are, what kind of husbandry techniques they use, etc. etc. You are not only buying the reptile, but you're also buying a piece of the vendor. If the vendor is knowledgable, freindly and answers your questions to your satisfaction, more than not the animal is going to be up to par and your expectations.

As far as human diseases go, it has absolutely nothing to do with reptiles or handling reptiles at a show. Most reptile pathogens do not affect humans, at least not in the way they affect reptiles. Coccidia is not going to kill a human (you may get a stomach ache) but it will wipe out someones reptile collection. It doesn't have to be transferred by feces or bodily fluids, it is ejected from the body though feces, but travels in many other different ways after that. Coccidia can live up to six months without a host unless frozen or fried. Have you ever had to deal with a case of Coccidia in a collection of reptiles? Let me tell you what, it is a complete nightmare. Unfortunately I had this experience about 6-7 years ago with a group of bearded dragons. It didn't come from a show and I have always been paranoid of parasites, but it increased my parasite paranoia about 1000 times. Ever since, you won't even walk into my reptile room without me making you wash your hands first.

 

[bpc]

To be more precise, coccidia come from fecal-contaminated ground. They are swallowed when a pet grooms/licks the dirt off itself. In some cases, sporulated oocysts are swallowed by mice and the host is infected when it eats the mouse

Sounds like it'd be better if you had them wash thier feet.

My mention of human diseases was meant to clarify what I said about people having warped views of diseases in general. Your bearded dragon infection was probably caused by your feeding of infected crickets. Whats next, test every meal? Animals with normal immune function should be able to fight off most disease. Those which immunosupressed from stress (no matter what the cause) will have a much harder time dealing w/ the problem.

 

[gcsreptiles]

It wasn't from crickets, they were bought that way from a guy that used to attend shows around the Pheonix metro area and I'm sure a few animals other than his went home with Coccidia at the end of the day. Besides Coccidia accurs naturally in bearded dragons, it is a natural intestinal flora. Stress and other diseases cause them to flare up into uncontrolable proportions, but they are still transmittable.

I agree that animals that are stressed will have a much harder time dealing with disease, as with any living species, but my point is to try to lesson the chance of them getting the disease in the first place. If I don't want people to touch my animals because of this, then so be it. Like Rich said, I may loose a few customers, but I'm not going home stressed, worried if I'm going to spread something to the rest of my collection. If someone else lets every Joe Schmoe handle their animals that stops by their table, is like playing with matches, eventually you will get burned. After 16 years I've only had to deal with an outbreak twice and hopefully I will never have to deal with it again. I have strict quartine practices, have fecals done on all of my reptiles 1-2 times per year and I try to take every precaution not to cross contaminate. I deal with an occasional pin worm or flagelatte in a couple of animals periodically, but other than that..........

 

[gcsreptiles]

I am attracted to vendors that are freindly (not pushy), with clean, organized tables, displays and animals. I'm more apt to buy from a small breeder rather than a large broker or larger company with tons of animals they have no idea about.

I do not let people touch my animals or deli cups unless they are buying it. I will pick it up for you and let you look at it all you want to, but you're not touching it until you are ready to buy it. I don't care if there's hand sanitizer or not. Call me paranoid, but with the amount of money I have tied up in my collection, tough. I can understand that people want to see the animal they're interested in and inspect it for flaws (see with your eyes not your hands), but all these people have to do is talk to me (or any vendor), ask questions, see how knowledgable they are, what kind of husbandry techniques they use, etc. etc. You are not only buying the reptile, but you're also buying a piece of the vendor. If the vendor is knowledgable, freindly and answers your questions to your satisfaction, more than not the animal is going to be up to par and your expectations.

As far as human diseases go, it has absolutely nothing to do with reptiles or handling reptiles at a show. Most reptile pathogens do not affect humans, at least not in the way they affect reptiles. Coccidia is not going to kill a human (you may get a stomach ache) but it will wipe out someones reptile collection. It doesn't have to be transferred by feces or bodily fluids, it is ejected from the body though feces, but travels in many other different ways after that. Coccidia can live up to six months without a host unless frozen or fried. Have you ever had to deal with a case of Coccidia in a collection of reptiles? Let me tell you what, it is a complete nightmare. Unfortunately I had this experience about 6-7 years ago with a group of bearded dragons. It didn't come from a show and I have always been paranoid of parasites, but it increased my parasite paranoia about 1000 times. Ever since, you won't even walk into my reptile room without me making you wash your hands first.

 

[Alex Russell]

A Good Vendor...View from the Other Side of the Table

Information is the key to a good vendor. And this includes both information from the vendor and information for the vendor. I will be the first to admit that I am not as knowledgeable as you, the vendors, where the animals are concerned. But, while working the shows, I get to hear what the buyer says. An open mind is a wonderful thing!

Good clean displays, lots of information about care of animals, contact information, additional resources for information, and a vendor standing behind the quality of his/her animals are all good sound advice. I don't care if the animal is WC or CB, $5 or $5,000. A good vendor is not afraid to tell his buyer what to expect. The word about a deceptive vendor gets around fast in this business.

As far as handling animals, common sense is that many reptiles do not like to be handled. Heck, even a puppy will get stressed out if handled too much. Though some buyers appreciate being able to handle an animal, most would be apt to buy an animal that has not been over handled. As for the sanitizer, we never really know. Just remember that many people do not wash after using the restroom. I wouldn't want that touching my animal or its surroundings. Maybe sanitizer is nothing more than a nod toward cleanliness, but a nice touch. Several bottles set around the display is also pleasant to see, especially on the part of the germophobic buyer.

I have had many buyers return with dead animals during shows. Many don't remember who they bought it from. A good vendor would be sure to pass on this info. Many buyers don't think about asking for a card or contact info. As well, many buyers don't realize that, especially during the hot months, bringing a reptile out into the hot air in a deli cup, getting into the hot car is enough to cook a baby reptile. The vendors are the experts and any little tidbit of info is important to the buyer, especially if the buyer is a newbie. If you can't remember to tell the buyer the small general info, a simple fact sheet is a sure fire way of avoiding an irate mother whose son's $25 snake cooked on the way home. We all realize that printed material can be expensive, use your intuition to selectively hand out business cards and other info. But, please, be sure your buyers have the necessary basic info. A happy customer will surely come back. This I know as I often have people ask me where a particular vendor is located at the show.

Yes, there are buyers looking for a bargain and prefer to buy from a small vendor versus the "big brokers." My suggestion to buyers has been to shop around, compare animals, talk to each vendor, and not be afraid to dicker on the price. It's just like buying apples. One may be more expensive, but may tend to be fresher and tastier! Thusly, a better buy.

It's good to know there are vendors that really care. I have accompanied some disgruntled buyers back to the vendor that sold them a sick or dead animal. Sometimes I hear mumbo jumbo about the buyer "letting" the animal cook, or not caring for it correctly (an animal will become ill or die in less than 24 hours from miscare by the buyer? Yikes!?!). That is bad business. It's not very often that I have heard complaints about the "big brokers" or reputable vendors or specialized breeders. It's usually about the small, unknown vendor. And I usually don't see them come back to another show!

Take care guys and remember...Information, information, information!

Brett

 

[meretseger]

A note to a much earlier post-

I'd just like to make the note that HPV causes cervical cancer and therefore kills many women every year.

Erin B.

 

[bpc]

Erin, you're 100% correct on that one. I think it doesn't make headlines because people don't view it as a direct link (which it most certainly is). HPV is much scarier than HIV yet it just doesn't get the play. I think it's similar to some of the views on disease vectors we've seen here. Personally, everyone can do whatever they want with thier reptiles, but I think the chances of someone infecting one of my animals w/ something after they've sanitized thier hands is extremely low. As such, I will continue to let people PROPERLY handle the reptiles on my table at shows.

 

[SPJ]

Not handling the animal is fine with me as long as the vendor is honest about the temperament and health of the animal. Besides, some problems can be seen without having to touch the animals such as retained sheds, mites, ticks, burns, scars, etc.
The one thing that does turn me away from a vendor is what I saw at the last White Plains show. A guy had a large glass tank on his table. No heat and inside were 3 BP's a burm, a carpet python, a RTB, and who knows what else was under the pile of mismatched snakes. I walked away from that table. I wouldn't want to handle ANY of his animals even if he offered.