• Posted 12/19/2024.
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    I am still waiting on my developer to finish up on the Classifieds Control Panel so I can use it to encourage members into becoming paying members. Google Adsense has become a real burden on the viewing of this site, but honestly it is the ONLY source of income now that keeps it afloat. I tried offering disabling the ads being viewed by paying members, but apparently that is not enough incentive. Quite frankly, Google Adsense has dropped down to where it barely brings in enough daily to match even a single paid member per day. But it still gets the bills paid. But at what cost?

    So even without the classifieds control panel being complete, I believe I am going to have to disable those Google ads completely and likely disable some options here that have been free since going to the new platform. Like classified ad bumping, member name changes, and anything else I can use to encourage this site to be supported by the members instead of the Google Adsense ads.

    But there is risk involved. I will not pay out of pocket for very long during this last ditch experimental effort. If I find that the membership does not want to support this site with memberships, then I cannot support your being able to post your classified ads here for free. No, I am not intending to start charging for your posting ads here. I will just shut the site down and that will be it. I will be done with FaunaClassifieds. I certainly don't need this, and can live the rest of my life just fine without it. If I see that no one else really wants it to survive neither, then so be it. It goes away and you all can just go elsewhere to advertise your animals and merchandise.

    Not sure when this will take place, and I don't intend to give any further warning concerning the disabling of the Google Adsense. Just as there probably won't be any warning if I decide to close down this site. You will just come here and there will be some sort of message that the site is gone, and you have a nice day.

    I have been trying to make a go of this site for a very long time. And quite frankly, I am just tired of trying. I had hoped that enough people would be willing to help me help you all have a free outlet to offer your stuff for sale. But every year I see less and less people coming to this site, much less supporting it financially. That is fine. I tried. I retired the SerpenCo business about 14 years ago, so retiring out of this business completely is not that big if a step for me, nor will it be especially painful to do. When I was in Thailand, I did not check in here for three weeks. I didn't miss it even a little bit. So if you all want it to remain, it will be in your hands. I really don't care either way.

    =====================
    Some people have indicated that finding the method to contribute is rather difficult. And I have to admit, that it is not all that obvious. So to help, here is a thread to help as a quide. How to become a contributing member of FaunaClassifieds.

    And for the record, I will be shutting down the Google Adsense ads on January 1, 2025.
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What Constitutes "LTC"?

John E Dove

John E Dove

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Of course we all know that LTC (Long Term Captive) is just a wild caught animal that has been in captivity for a while but my question is how long an animal should have been in captivity before it can truly be classed as LTC.
It seems that some animals fresh off the import plane get this distinction and their actual captivity time could be anything from days to months.
 
I've wondered that myself, John....a very good question. I've never gotten any kind of definitive answer, it seems to vary greatly from person to person exactly what they consider to be a "long" time in captivity.
 
I believe it is meant to describe a problem free, (in the veterinary sense), eating without problems, acclimated wild caught animal. If you haven't had the animal long enough to know this about the animal (with confidence), then you shouldn't be using the term.
 
Personally I wouldn't consider an animal a LTC if in captivity for less than 1 year. This would give the animal a chance to go through an entire instinctive cycle (breeding, hibernation etc.) an a chance to survive it. An animal that is captured in the spring of the year and sold as LTC after 6 months may naturally attempt to go into hibernation the following winter and if conditions are not right they may not survive.

There is no right or wrong answer to this. LTC means exactly what the person applying the tag thinks it means, and exactly what the person buying the animal thinks it means. They may or may not mean the same thingto both parties. All that we can do is determine what it means to us and follow those guidelines. At the very least it means asking the seller hoe long the animal has been in captivity and ask for a specific amount of time and not just assurances the the animal is LTC.
 
That's the best explanation I've heard yet, Steve. :)
 
sschind said:
Personally I wouldn't consider an animal a LTC if in captivity for less than 1 year. This would give the animal a chance to go through an entire instinctive cycle (breeding, hibernation etc.) an a chance to survive it. An animal that is captured in the spring of the year and sold as LTC after 6 months may naturally attempt to go into hibernation the following winter and if conditions are not right they may not survive.

There is no right or wrong answer to this. LTC means exactly what the person applying the tag thinks it means, and exactly what the person buying the animal thinks it means. They may or may not mean the same thingto both parties. All that we can do is determine what it means to us and follow those guidelines. At the very least it means asking the seller hoe long the animal has been in captivity and ask for a specific amount of time and not just assurances the the animal is LTC.
Click to expand...

I would have to agree with Ms Peterson, very good explanation.
I generally do ask if purchasing an LTC which is what prompted my post.
I have heard everything from over a year to as little as one month.
I feel that some sort of standard needs to be established so that newbees do not get caught off guard purchasing something that could easily die on them in weeks or months from something contracted it the wild that is exacerbated by the stress of captivity.
 
John E Dove said:
I feel that some sort of standard needs to be established so that newbees do not get caught off guard purchasing something that could easily die on them in weeks or months from something contracted it the wild that is exacerbated by the stress of captivity.
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I think a year is good, personally.
 
I would tend to agree that 1 year would be reasonable which would lead to the next question.
How would this be made an industry standard?
 
John E Dove said:
I would tend to agree that 1 year would be reasonable which would lead to the next question.
How would this be made an industry standard?
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Im not really sure... lol people would have to agree i suppose! Just start doing it and hope it catches on?

For me, it was always an "assumption" that LTC meant its been here for a year or more.... but... yeah... thats just me :) :D
 
kmurphy said:
I believe it is meant to describe a problem free, (in the veterinary sense), eating without problems, acclimated wild caught animal. If you haven't had the animal long enough to know this about the animal (with confidence), then you shouldn't be using the term.
Click to expand...


To me, that is the best and only answer that COULD work. LTC, to me, means that the animal is established, and would do as well as a CB one in the hands of the AVERAGE keeper. Six months might be long enough to KNOW a Desert Kingsnake is cleaned up, healthy, etc. Twelve months probably isn't long enough for an imported WC Hundred Flowers snake.

If the breeder is trustworthy, LTC typically means the animal is established beyond any doubt in their mind REGARDLESS of if it has been there 6 months or 6 years. 1 month isn't long enough, I think, for any snake. There are many, however, that I would have NO qualms about selling as LTC after 6 months due to the fact that I'm convinced they'll do well for anyone that gets it.

The 1 year makes a lot of sense - unless the animal is still troublesome - but the justification is one I can't support. The idea that one year means the animal has went through the full cycle....WHAT exactly does that mean? If it does want to brumate, would you not call it established? Sure, when it gets cool outside, it might want to brumate. Ditto for some CB animals whether they are cycled or not. I have many CB that won't eat during the winter - PERIOD. WC aren't the only one that can do that, and I wouldn't consider it a problem, anyway. Et cetera, but you get my point.

One year is just as arbitrary as 7 months and 3 days. I feel the term needs to be variable for different species and different individuals, but there should always be some implication of VERY well established in captivity! You take a risk on the survival of any WC. The risk on a LTC should be no greater than on an adult CB.

That's MY outlook on it!
KJ
 
In my opinion it's very difficult to put a time frame that fits one and all reptiles between species and even within a species. If we have to let the animal manifest all its possible natural behaviors it may take a year but also several depending on the species. If the expectation is a breeding outcome and we have a young WC tortoise, when does it turn into a LTC animal? We don't necessarily need to associate LTC with an animal fullfilling all its biological behaviors. An animal that's thriving well in captivity, feeding, growing, and adapted to his captive surroundings is a LTC. Maybe we need to coin a different term because "long" is relative; something like "Well Adapted to Captive Conditions".

Best regards
 
Yes, I agree. An "established wild caught" (with the animal displaying all it's natural behavior) is more descriptive than LTC. This last one varies enormously depending on the species and even within a species. You can have a LTC ball python for one year in captivity and can still be not "established" (some haven't even fed yet!). You may have a 3 year WC female that's eating for you, healthy as can be, but that will not breed. It can be labeled as a LTC but in reality is irrelevant because she is not manifesting her full biological and behavioral potential. Again if we base our definition in manifesting all their normal biological behavior, when do you consider an imported WC young tortoise LTC. When it breeds for you? That can be several years if at all.

Regards,
 
I can see we have differing view points on what constitutes an LTC.
I do not see breeding ability as being part of the equation at all. I have purchased CB animals that would not breed but I have never purchased a CB who was not feeding or that was carrying pathogens that would cause them to drop dead in a month or so.
Of course I have never purchased a LTC or WC that dropped dead in a month either because when I get one, which is very seldom, it is taken to a vet ASAP for a check up & fecal.

Now I can understand that there may be the occasional exception to the rule animal but on the whole our customers, novice or expert, should be able to count on the fact that if they get an LTC it will be acclimatized to captivity, feeding and in good health.
Acclimatized to captivity does not mean docile either, it simply means they will not be smashing their snout on the glass as though they have never been in an enclosure before.

Yes perhaps the LTC term needs to be replaced but then you are left with the same issue, what constitutes an "established wild caught"? Is it just an animal that is feeding?

I don’t see changing the terminology as clarifying the issue unless well defined parameters can be established as to what qualifications must be met to fit into the classification.
I suppose it is the same with LTC which is why I started this thread.
 
Good points John.

My understanding of an "established wild caught" (and I don't pretend to be right) is that animal which the environment and the management provided by the caregiver allows it to express the normal behavior for the species.

This can happen in a few weeks for certain species particularly if they are young. They will feed, and behave in a normal way for the species. They might even exhibit "abnormal behavior" and instead of retreating to the hide spot they will be searching for food when he sees you around his enclosure.

Now, the problem I have with the term LTC is that it states nothing about behavioral aspects. One is just assuming what the seller understands for this term and, as we all know, it can be 6 months regardless if it's an animal that stresses easily and eats irregularly. In short LTC does not equal EWC, although the latter is nore often than not a LTC animal.

Just MHO.
 
Very good points all. The point about the species is especially valid. There are some animals that just do not thrive in captivity but they are tough enough that it takes them a long time to die. They may well survive past the 1 year mark.

Yes, 1 year is an arbitrary figure, but then so is the term LTC. So is the term Established wild caught. As far as that goes so is the term "feeding" I have seen people sell all sorts of animals as "feeding" after they have fed 1 time and I have seen some of those animals never feed again and die soon thereafter. I have had animals that feed one time and never again. I have seen this with both WC and CBB. That is why I have set the arbitrary figure of 1 year as my personal standard for my use of the term LTC. You may choose to set your figure higher or lower as you see fit. That does not mean that I will not purchase and animal that has not been in captivity for 1 year or that I will not sell an animal that has not been in captivity for 1 year. I will not, however, sell an animal that has not been in my possesion long enough for me to make a qualified decision that the animal is healthyand established (there's that arbitrary word again). Whether or not you believe me is determined by how trustworthy you think I am.

All this is exactly why there can not be an industry standard as to what LTC is. It can vary greatly from species to species and even individuals within species. It is also why LTC is, for the most part, a useless term. Established WC is not much better. The key factor is the trustworthiness of the seller. There are some sellers I would buy from if they had an animal for a week and there are some I wouldn't buy from if they had the same animal for 3 years. In my opinion, trustworthy people would not be selling non established animals or difficult to establish animals without indicating as such. Therefore, when I see an animals that is notorious for being a difficult starter, and the seller is labeling it as LTC, or "established" I automatically do not believe them unless I have some background information on them that would indicate to me that they were a reputable person, or until such time as I could discuss the particulars with them and determine to my satisfaction that what they were saying is true.

We can't make honesty and industry standard no matter how much we would like it to be.
 
All this is exactly why there can not be an industry standard as to what LTC is. It can vary greatly from species to species and even individuals within species. It is also why LTC is, for the most part, a useless term. Established WC is not much better. The key factor is the trustworthiness of the seller.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more with you there. :) In fact with some species I would rather "work" with a recently imported animal (labeled as established or not) than with one that has been "Long Time Stressed" (another term! :) ) at a dealer facility. When buying a LTC animal the first question I ask is: "Is it eating"? With an established wild caught I will probably also ask it but still, the term "established" gives me a greater reassurance that it means the animal is eating. But of course as you say everything boils down to the trustworthiness of the seller.

Excellent discussion though!

Regards,
 
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