The cost of owning illegal reptiles in British Columbia

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K9dr

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For the last four years Dewdney Animal Hospital has been taking on, holding, and rehoming where possible CAS animals for the BC government. We have done this in an attempt to prevent euthanasia of these animals. Over this time we have held CAS animals near continuously and have eaten the costs because we believe these are wonderful animals that deserve a chance. Over the last few months we have been inundated to the point that we have filled every single reptile enclosure we own and have had to shut down our boarding facility for cats and dogs due to the proximately of these animals. We made the decision to order more appropriate cages from Cornell's world and those should be arriving shortly.

Dewdney has been taking on the costs of these animals for the last four years, but we cannot do so any more. As such we are publishing our fees to handle these animals. Those of you that are maintaining CAS animals in violation of the law should know that our fees will be charged to you should any of your animals be seized by Conservation. i.e. you will be responsible for these costs. In general these costs accrue for approximately 2 weeks to 6 weeks after a seizure at which point the government surrenders them to Dewdney Animal Hospital and we are able to try and find forever homes either in the province or outside. It usually takes between 4-6 months for us to get these animals rehomed for which we receive no funding.

Please understand, we are a working veterinary hospital and these funds cover utilities, lease, staff, insurance and all the things necessary to operate a business.

So be aware that if you are caught with CAS animals you may be facing a very, very high bill from the government to cover my services. You may want to consider this a VERY generous donation to our facility.

Dr. Adrian Walton

We expect to be receiving our new reptile cages mid September. To provide space for these cages we have had to remove a bank of dog and cat cages. As such we have elected to increase our prices to reflect the cost of the cages as well as the general upkeep.

The cages we have are divisible into 18", 36", 52" and 72". Animals will be assigned a cage dependent on their needs.

These fees are in effect as of Sept 1st, 2014

For snakes,
18" cages for snakes up to 3 ft long = $15/day
36" cage for snakes up to 5 ft long = $20/day
52" cage for snakes up to 6 ft long = $30/day
72" cage for snakes up to 8 ft long - $40/day
> 8ft long = $50/day for maximum of 6 months.

For lizards/crocodilians
18" cages for lizard up to 1 ft long = $15/day
36" cage for lizard up to 2 ft long = $20/day
52" cage for lizard up to 3 ft long = $30/day
72" cage for lizard up to 4 ft long - $40/day
> 4 ft long = $50 per day for a maximum of 6 months.

Crocodilians have a $10 per day surcharge due to their need to be moved from our aquatic tank to the terrestrial tank.

Hot/venomous $200 per day and only with approval of Dr. Walton and only offsite (will supply cages/heat/food and cleaning but will not keep onsite, and must be in Maple Ridge Pittmeadows)


Travel/examination costs.
These are from the BCVMA fee guide (see attached)

Exams in clinic $84.90
Off site call $289.30/hr. Does not include travel costs to site, but does include travel costs if transporting CAS. Ends when animals safely confined in cages at Dewdney.

Travel costs $3.60 per km.

After hours 5pm or weekends/sundays $156.50 surcharge.
 
I should also point out that these fees are directly out of the BCVMA recommended fee guide, the exception of the boarding costs from which we took cats at $20 per day to be a 5ft snake and for dogs in a run equivalent to a 8ft snake $40/day.
 
I can't see how your not profiting on these peoples animals? I can't see a 2' snake needing $15 a day to house, Your overhead must be through the roof.

Recommended fee guide? For real. It's like using the suggested retail pricing with products.

What a racket you have going on.
 
Yes. The point is to make a profit. This is my job. What an interesting concept ;). I take it you get paid for what you do?

What you are neglecting to consider is any funds acquired are then used to support the animal for weeks to months until they are er homed or euthanized. It covers the costs of any medical care that they require and that can add up pretty quickly. Every square foot of my clinic is a cost in both lease, electricity, insurance, leasehold upgrades, Staff have to be paid, X-ray units have to be paid for. Yep running a vet hospital is expensive.


Dr. Adrian Walton
Dewdney Animal Hospital
Maple Ridge BC
 
You know what? Lets break it down and see if you think its unreasonable. Lets start with money in.....

I have a bank of 3 6'x2' cages. They are divisible into 4 18", 2 3' or 1 6' cage. Lets assume that in an average year they are 50% occupied at any one time (lets assume 2 18" cages, 1 3' cage, and 1 6' cage occupied i.e. $90 per day) (We are a holding facility so we have to have some built in excess space). Of course we only charge for the time they are in Consevations care, so lets assume that of the time they are here is paid for and 2/3rds are on my dime.

So we have

Snakes $90 per day x 1/3 of a year (122 days) = $10,980 per year income (lets round up to $11,000

Ok, now to the costs

My clinic operating budget is $1,300,000 per year (yep 4 vet practice and 20 full time staff) for a 3000 sq ft practice. That makes every sq ft needing to generate $435 per year. Granted I expect that surgical suites and x-ray rooms generate higher returns, so lets drop that number to $300 per year per sq ft.

A bank of 6'x2' cages takes up 18 sq ft, but they also have to account for 3 ft in front of them that is empty space, so 30sq ft.

$300 x 30 sq ft means that the cages need to generate $9000 to cover their costs. Add in a 20% profit = $10,800 per year, or to round up $11,000 per year.
 
You really expect somebody to pay u 6000 a month for a hot? Forget Georgia I'm moving to BC, thats where all the money's at!
 
I would not expect a licensed veterinarian to have to deliver free care for illegal animals received from the government which seized them from private owners.
And for hots in particular, it would seem as if the vet would be responsible for any damages by the critter and so would have to have specially trained staff to care for it.

Whether or not you agree with such laws is a different issue than whether you think those caring for illegal animals during the legal process should get paid.
I can think of no better temporary home for an illegal reptile than a skilled experienced veterinary clinic, and I think that such a facility is entitled to compensation.
 
To RDLinATL,

Might want to take a closer look at what I stated. Hots are not allowed in my facility due to insurance and liabiilty issues, therefore they would be housed somewhere else. That means that I would have to leave my facility, travel to the location, do any general care needed. It would also mean that I bring with me a spotter, in case of any problems. So for an hour of my time, as well as that of my technician, yep thats the going rate.

You are also neglecting the fact that I will unlikely have access to antivenom should any mishaps occur. We have already had to work on two seprate occasions with mexican cantils, which you should know that CroFAB isnt that useful against. One of these animals was being kept in glass aquariums with rocks on the lid to secure them.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/metro/Deadly+vipers+found+Langley+home/8816795/story.html

So now does this sound unreasonable?
Its one thing to work with these animals because you choose to do so, its another thing for me to take that risk for public safety, and the safety of Law enforcement (conservation, police, spca).
 
yes i find it comical that your organization would recieve the money instead of the facility actually doing the care in the first place. they should have any antivenom for the hot if they are willing to take care of it. thats hot training 101. ajd to lucille i also believe they are entilted to compensation but 6000 a month is ridiculous. please pay me 6000 a month per snake and i will gladly quit my job and take care of them all and find them new homes. after 4 days of pay with these snakes you should afford all safety equipment necessary to care for them (which the offsite facility should have anyways). that includes locking sturdy cages, hooks, tubes and even specfic antivenom (not crofab). i respect what your doing and your entitled to money to care for them but 6000 a month is ridiculous.
 
Ugh. Yes hot training 101 says that I should have antivenom for any hot in ones care. However I would point out that logic thinking 101 says that you can only purchase antivenom for an animal that you know you will have. The concept is that these are seized animals. Perhaps in some alternative (Tom Cruise) reality, people can tell me that on such and such a day, there will be a house fire and you will find copperheads, or that next wednesday a crack head who traded some of his stash for a gaboon viper. Sadly that is not the way reality works. Please by all means move up here and apply for your Controlled alien species rescue permit. I would love the competition..... Oh wait, I am the only one stupid enough to have applied for such a permit.....
 
lol! I'm sorry if it seems I'm giving you a hard time. It's just my opinion and I don't pretend to know all the technicalities that go on behind the scenes of owning a veterinary hospital and rescue. I respect what your doing for the community. I just had to voice my opinion.
 
I don't take offense. It is hard for people to understand why veterinarians cost as much as they do. I spent the last 4 years charging $10 a day because I wanted the opportunity for people who had lost their snakes an opportunity to try and get them back. I even dropped the price to $5 a day so that one individual would be able to afford that. But after being in limbo for 6 months, and they were not able to afford the $2000 bill (2 snakes). Unfortunately it took another 4 months to find a suitable home in Ontario.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/therapy-snakes-help-special-needs-kids-1.2618312

In the last 6 weeks I have recieved 3 burmese, 1 retic, a asiatic water monitor and a spectacled caiman. A little overwhelming for a facility that is really set up to handle ball pythons and bearded dragons.

In the last three years I have dealt with three hot cases, 1 was a 17 year old who wanted to give up his snake, and the other were two being kept in small aquariums with rocks to keep the cages secure. I have two kids, not really my job to deal with hots, and not something I want to do, but if forced to take that kind of risk (yes I am aware that the risks are minimal, but if something goes wrong the costs are extreme), then the person putting me at risk should be financially responsible.

I couple of other reasons the cost is so high. I operate a very busy practice, so the only time I can go to clean cages, treat animals and change water dishes is at the end of the day, so overtime for both me and my tech. Plus I don't want to work with hots (other then my very cute and adorable gila monster and any phylobates bicolor that show up, hey you and I know they are harmless but the BC government not so much), how much do you charge to do things you dont want to do?
 
RDLinATL said:
yes i find it comical that your organization would recieve the money instead of the facility actually doing the care in the first place. they should have any antivenom for the hot if they are willing to take care of it. thats hot training 101. ajd to lucille i also believe they are entilted to compensation but 6000 a month is ridiculous. please pay me 6000 a month per snake and i will gladly quit my job and take care of them all and find them new homes. after 4 days of pay with these snakes you should afford all safety equipment necessary to care for them (which the offsite facility should have anyways). that includes locking sturdy cages, hooks, tubes and even specfic antivenom (not crofab). i respect what your doing and your entitled to money to care for them but 6000 a month is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

With all the waste in cities,states,and federal governments,I'm surprised you have time to come on this thread and complain.;)
 
These fees are excessive, especially for snakes. When we receive illegal animals, we usually are able to bill about $8-10 a day (varies by city and here it must be approved by a judge, typically) plus any actual costs. We are not vets so that cost would be added. The idea that boarding fees for low maintenance animals (snakes) which are fed weekly and cleaned as needed, should parallel cats or dogs is ridiculous. Of course, the simple fact is that these criminals rarely pay anyway. If the cost is intended to discourage illegal ownership, t won't. Nothing wrong with making a profit. Question - do you only board seized animals or do you take voluntary boarders (client going on vacation for instance) and if you do, what do you charge.
 
Perhaps, but you are not paying to have a veterinarian clean cages and feed (yes, 13 years of education means that I can demand a per hour wage greater then $10hr). You are not taking into account that a quarter of my facility is shut down to its normal purpose aka boarding dogs and cats ($40 per day and $20 per day respectively). No body wants their cat fluffy boarded next to an 11 ft retic. I broke down my costs in the above posts, if your costs are less then you are entitled to charge what ever you want, but these animals are taking up a good chunk of my clinic space and my time. Again, by all means move up here and start a CAS rescue facility if you think you can make a living at it (you can't). Again no offence intended but these are the costs.
 
To be clear, you are certainly entitled to your business model, as are we. But you have a "captive" clientele with these illegals. Nobody discussed a rate of $10 per hour, but you could certainly hire someone to clean cages and spend your time doing actual vet work,, commensurate with your experience to maximize your cash flow. Most snakes will take 15 minutes daily and an hour once a week. That's 2.5 hours. For a 6' snake that works out to $84 per hour. Certainly in line with what a vet charges, based on a 30 minute, $40-50 office consult. But it is work your STAFF can do, in between playing with puppies which they don't get paid for:D. Do you have staff that cares for other animals? Also, what do you do with big snakes after 6 months? And, again, do you do voluntary reptile boarding and what are your rates.
 
K9dr said:
Perhaps, but you are not paying to have a veterinarian clean cages and feed (yes, 13 years of education means that I can demand a per hour wage greater then $10hr). You are not taking into account that a quarter of my facility is shut down to its normal purpose aka boarding dogs and cats ($40 per day and $20 per day respectively). No body wants their cat fluffy boarded next to an 11 ft retic. I broke down my costs in the above posts, if your costs are less then you are entitled to charge what ever you want, but these animals are taking up a good chunk of my clinic space and my time. Again, by all means move up here and start a CAS rescue facility if you think you can make a living at it (you can't). Again no offence intended but these are the costs.
Click to expand...

Dr. Walton,

You seem to be continuing to explain your charges. Part of the charges seem to be overhead, part are for your skills and experience, part is for risk, part is for the paperwork I'm sure comes with the territory of seized animals, part is for profit, and we all need to make a living.
As the charges are for illegal animals, most of the readers here will hopefully not have to retrieve and pay for seized illegal critters.

If someone can do better, they can open a place across the street from you. It is very rare here (or anywhere) that anyone agrees with anything 100%, I hope you are not expecting that.
 
Guys - look I understand why you think these prices are outrageous so lets break it down into the simpliest terms.

  • I am a operating veterinary clinic
  • my entire boarding facility has been shut down to accomodate these animals
  • The only person legally allowed to handle these animals is me - a licensed veterinarian
  • The fees are only charged for the time that they are in Ministrty of the Environments care ~1 month
  • The animals then spend 3-10 months in my care with no funding support before rehoming is available
So for every day that is paid, I pay 3-10 days out of my own pocket, so yeah, the rates are high.

I agree with Lucille, if you guys think there is a potential business to be made please by all means come here and set up a business. I would LOVE the competition.

As for what we do with them after their time is up....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/therapy-snakes-help-special-needs-kids-1.2618312
 
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