So many people calling their boas LIPSTICK

[allreptiles1966]

To all you non educated lipstick sellers. Lipsticks are not orange people! RED. It really is disappointing that people will label their boas improperly for $$.

Here’s a page about Burke lipsticks and a description.

The Lipstick Line Kahl Strain Albino was established by Tom Burke from Burke Reptiles. He selectively bred 3 females to one male and produced top notch Sunglow's that exhibited high contrast Sunglow's with a red lipstick saddle and tail color which gave them the name "Lipstick".

Red, NOT orange people. Stop mis labeling. Get educated on Lipstick albinos/sunglows. We owe it to Tom to keep it real. IMO.

I see people calling stuff dbl dose lipsticks and they are orange as orange crush soda.
Also see normal or hypo boas being called hypo coral het albino. Am I missing something new? When did a normal or a hypo become coral boa’s?

Het lipstick or het coral? Since when?

Rich

Morph market is full of mis labeled boas.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

Morph market is full of mis labeled b̶o̶a̶s̶ animals.

Fixed that for you.

This 'stretching' of "morph" names is common enough. "Super Dalmatian" cresties with a few spots, RAPTOR leos that are neither patternless nor orange (this one is in part a change in terminology because actual RAPTORs are too hit and miss to make reliably, and 'Tremper eclipse' doesn't have the cool ring to it), and a handful of "looks like" lies ('Applegate' pyros so called simply because they're low-black is the last one I saw, pointed out to the seller, and got ignored about over there). It is easy to find 'Giant' leos that -- whether one believes that's even a morph -- don't conform to weight requirements for the "morph". There are 'line' animals being produced too that look nothing like the original line (I've seen "Lopez line" knoblochi lately that look nothing of the sort, for example; whether this is mislabeling or simply bad breeding I don't know).

There's misidentified locale animals and undeclared crosses to be had, too -- some honest mistakes, some just ignorant guessing, and some good old fashioned dishonest scamming.

Caveat emptor, as always.

 

[allreptiles1966]

I don’t know much about most reptile morphs, except boas. And even that I limited myself to the lipstick and coral lines. Obviously my favorite. I’m now trying to rebuild my collection and finding true quality lipsticks is not as easy as it was 15 years ago. I do see nerd. Not a fan so I don’t buy.


I’m probably hung up on this because I was taught by the fauna crew in the 2010’s all about lipsticks and corals. And I stuck to that. Plus my mentor has always been a great help.
I remember when this site and people would call you out on calling a boa lipstick or coral and it wasn’t. Any morphs or locales. I know there really aren’t any pure locales even though you see people post them. I’m sure some will say there are. And probably so. But not like I see people offering them.

It’s a shame. Really. Look what people did to pit bulls. Most people can’t tell a pit from a bully. People think a apbt weighs 100 lbs when they are 30-40 lb dogs. All to make money. I’m not against making money breeding. Not at all, well, dogs and cats are so over populated I’d like to see that breeding stopped for awhile.
But when you take quality lined bred animals and add something different to it and call it the same thing, that’s wrong. IMO.

 

[allreptiles1966]

Mm is a big place for misleading. I’m looking at a breeder calling a hypo a hypo lipstick het albino. Am I missing something from my school of hard knocks from breeders of the past? Can a hypo be a lipstick hypo? I’m gonna say NO.

New breeders- not every boa in your litter of a lipstick x to a non lipstick or even another lipstick will be lipstick! Very simple fact.
Misleading people is disgusting. I’d be ashamed to rip people off!

I remember back when these breeders would be called out for this. Now people just let it slide through hoping people would just know.
Well, it’s not happening. New buyers think they own something and it’s not what they were told. A shame.

Speak up people. I asked a guy why he called one a lipstick when I was pretty sure it wasn’t and he couldn’t/wouldn’t tell me. Why, he probably didn’t know the answer. Not one other person who knows the lineage would jump in. Another shame.

We need the old crew back. But for some reason, most have left. Or just sit back and let bad shit happen.

 

[JCCS]

Lipstick, like any other selectively bred "trait" is a lineage, not a mutation. If the animals have Lipstick lineage, they can absolutely label them that way. A lot of the Ferraris that are sold now definitely are not on the level of the animals I originally produced, although some very much are, but I'm definitely not going to say that they can't be called Ferraris as long as they can be traced back to those animals I produced. It's the same with Corals from Pete, Summit pastels or Flamingos. A lot of people don't understand how to "care" for selectively bred lineages and thus they are slowly but surely fizzled out. It's the nature of the game. It's why it's not the name that matters, but the quality of the animals produced. Don't worry about what other people are doing, worry about making nice animals yourself.

 

[CFexotics]

I've only seen one breeder have what I call true Lipstick animals in the past decade! On morphmarket you have people listing boas as Sunsets and they don't even have Hog island in them . It is sad

 

[Socratic Monologue]

There aren't too many ways to call people out on MM (they do try to keep things 'professional', in both the good and bad senses of that word). The 'report' button on each ad isn't really supposed to be used for this sort of thing -- that's my impression anyway; you could try it and see what kind of response you get.

If a potential buyer sees a mislabeled ad and wants to get it corrected, they're supposed to send a polite message to the seller. (I've done this, and sometimes it is productive and sometimes I make yet another enemy ). After you message a seller, MM sends you a form you can fill out to note how the inquiry went. If a seller gets enough negative feedback through those forms, MM will (I assume) investigate.

They've been quite responsive to my input on other issues with ads (they don't tolerate ads for clearly illegal animals much at all), but I would guess a seller would have to get a handful of 'mislabeled' complaints to get any action taken. Part of the problem is that most mislabeled animals I see there are from high volume flippers, and so the number of complaints they'd get would be a relatively low percentage of their total sales.

 

[allreptiles1966]

I have messaged a couple people offering lipsticks asking for pics of visual parents. Most say they got here or there. Another would say it’s from het to het breeding. But one guy and I had a couple civilized conversations about the lipsticks and corals. He actually thanked me for helping him out. Imagine that in this day and age. He did change his ads to lipstick line at least.

As like you, I’m sure I’ve made a couple people not like me also. But oh well, know what you’re selling before posting a bright orange albino/sunglow calling it a lipstick. As far back as I remember from the tongue lashings I took asking questions about lipsticks and corals, lipsticks are red to start. Maybe MM or Fauna should have a page dedicated to explaining the looks of the morphs they let be sold on their site. This would at least give people who don’t know a way to make sure they are getting what they pay extra for. Not tgat it would be problem free.
I love when normal looking boas are called lipstick het albino. I’d say that’s gonna be hard to tell. Only because I’ve bred hypo’s het albino and got nicely colored hets. Red sides and reds throughout and a clean pattern. And I know they were not lipstick lined.

I appreciate you talking about this. I’ve even had a guy on here that wouldn't/couldn’t tell
me about his lipstick boa he was selling. He got mad at me for questioning him about it.

I’m glad I pretty much know what I’m after With the lipsticks boas, but there are many new boa keepers buying these so called lipsticks and then breeding them. At that point, they call all the babies lipsticks when we all know they all won’t be. And the cycle keeps going.

Another problem is that no one is calling these breeders out when posting in fear of being reprimanded by the higher ups. When I first joined fauna, I loved it. Great way to learn fast is to post an ad calling something it isn’t or might not be. The hounds would come right on and get to it! Now, we’ll, you know.

 

[allreptiles1966]

I've only seen one breeder have what I call true Lipstick animals in the past decade! On morphmarket you have people listing boas as Sunsets and they don't even have Hog island in them . It is sad

It’s a shame! Money makes people do some crappy things. I’m looking at a breeder selling a ton of so called lipsticks and not a one is close to what it should look like. As stated before, some breeders ( new I hope ) call every boa in the litter a lipstick. And only 1 parent is supposed to be lipstick.

 

[allreptiles1966]

Lipstick, like any other selectively bred "trait" is a lineage, not a mutation. If the animals have Lipstick lineage, they can absolutely label them that way. A lot of the Ferraris that are sold now definitely are not on the level of the animals I originally produced, although some very much are, but I'm definitely not going to say that they can't be called Ferraris as long as they can be traced back to those animals I produced. It's the same with Corals from Pete, Summit pastels or Flamingos. A lot of people don't understand how to "care" for selectively bred lineages and thus they are slowly but surely fizzled out. It's the nature of the game. It's why it's not the name that matters, but the quality of the animals produced. Don't worry about what other people are doing, worry about making nice animals yourself.

Lipstick lined is different than a visual lipstick. So should be called as such. IMO
You never called anyone out for what they were mis labeling an animal? I could be wrong, but you yourself were one of the wolfs on here back 10-15 years ago.

And not worried, troubled is more the word. I’m not the only one either.

 

[JCCS]

You don't seem to understand that there is no such thing as a "Lipstick". It's not a mutation where there is a definitive genetic boundary. You're just describing a nicer animal from that line. It simply doesn't work the way you seemingly want it to.

 

[JCCS]

Also, I never said I haven't called anyone out. I called them out when they were misrepresenting an animal, especially intentionally. You're again not quite getting what I'm saying. I'm saying that if the animal is traceable back to Tom's Lipstick animals, they have the right to call them that. If they aren't traceable back to Tom, then by all means, call them out. You don't get to define what makes a lipstick a lipstick. There's a lot of Ferrari animals out there that don't really resemble the animals I produced back in the day, but that doesn't mean they aren't Ferraris, it just means the people weren't careful with their breedings and at that point, the name doesn't mean much.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

So, for someone like me who doesn't know a Boa constrictor from a ball python (well, not that bad, but close), what is a Lipstick/Lipstick line/Lipstick curious/whatever?

Sincerely -- I have no idea, but wouldn't mind learning. It might be valuable to have an authoritative description, or a friendly discussion that leads to something like a collective agreement.

 

[allreptiles1966]

So, for someone like me who doesn't know a Boa constrictor from a ball python (well, not that bad, but close), what is a Lipstick/Lipstick line/Lipstick curious/whatever?

Sincerely -- I have no idea, but wouldn't mind learning. It might be valuable to have an authoritative description, or a friendly discussion that leads to something like a collective agreement.

This is a clip that I agree with myself.

To be a Lipstick, it must be direct descendant of the original Lipstick Line AND be of exceptional “red” color.

Now that part is hard to track now a days, tracing back to Tom’s original boas. And notice the use of “ red “ not orange. As so many postings of lipsticks are.
With other pastels and other morphs producing some really nice reds, it probably comes down to the tracing back part to know 100% they are lipsticks.
I ask for that proof, but very few can prove it. There are a few breeders with lipsticks that came from Toms original stock. If you look on mm, there’s one breeder that’s been around for many years that has lipsticks. Traceable I believe. But you look at them and know they are most likely lipsticks. I won’t say the breeders name since I’m not sure if it’s like a boi style post. But he’s a big breeder. Another guy I know 100% sure he has lipsticks. He produces the reddest sun dragons. Amanda, Toms daughter told me he bought many of Toms lipsticks. Before and after Tom passed on


Another clip of someone else.

FYI: Uneducated or worse unscrupulous breeders can call any snake anything they want. I have seen boas sold as lipstick (and many other "lines") that had almost no red. This is a disservice to the hobby. I certainly hope your is a true Lipstick and very bright in color.

Thankfully, quality breeders (and educated buyers) will not be satisfied with calling a boa Lipstick unless it is of exceptional visual quality. Now that you are one of the educated, when you breed yours, look for those of exceptionally beautiful reds and proudly advertise them as Lipsticks.

Hope this helps some. Red red red. As Amanda said, it looks like they were painted with lipstick. And Toms line was born.

 

[JCCS]

So, for someone like me who doesn't know a Boa constrictor from a ball python (well, not that bad, but close), what is a Lipstick/Lipstick line/Lipstick curious/whatever?

Sincerely -- I have no idea, but wouldn't mind learning. It might be valuable to have an authoritative description, or a friendly discussion that leads to something like a collective agreement.

I was around when Tom made them and spoke with him extensively about the animals when he first debuted them at Daytona. Lipsticks were a lineage specifically going around albinos and sunglow boas that Tom Burke developed that had an intense red/pink coloration. Rich is trying to combine a lineage with a trait, which just doesn't work. A trait is a general description of something, like a pastel boa, which has a selectively reduction of black. There are tons of lineages of pastel boas. A lineage is the specific bloodline that Tom developed. If they are of Lipstick lineage, they're lipsticks. They might not be high quality ones, but lipsticks they are.

What people aren't quite getting is it doesn't matter what name the animal is given, it's what the animal looks like. Someone rightfully calling their lower colored animals lipsticks does not detract the quality of animals you produce. It's why I love boas so much more than an animal like bp's. Even with the same mutation, there's a crazy amount of variation that can be introduced.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

To clarify: I don't know what I'm talking about, and I have no horse in this race.

Searching the term 'lipstick' in the boa section on MM gets me all and only the the boas with the trait 'Kahl albino' (that's how they set their search tool to work). A little Googling suggests that some people think 'Lipsticks' are especially red Kahl albinos. Some think that a Kahl albino with "Bcc blood influence" is thereby a 'Lipstick Line'.

These are both different understandings than the two put forth so far here: that a Lipstick has to be a visually superior animal, or that a Lipstick has to descend from the animals bred by one specific person (as here).

Something I'll throw in that is clear regarding other species that I'm more familiar with: some people think that a specimen of 'X line' is a specimen that has all and only progenitors from line X. Other people think that a specimen can be called 'X line' if only some of its progenitors were from line X. This latter understanding can lead to some pretty watered down animals being called 'X line'.

Whether lineage needs to be pure (as, for example, I personally think 'locale specific' animals must be) or can wind its way down through only one parent (in the same way that I personally might claim to be "Czechoslovakian" simply in virtue of one of my grandparents having been born in Czechoslovakia) causes some disagreement in herp circles -- that might be part of what's going on here.

At any rate, it seems like there may not be one account of what it is to be 'Lipstick', and not even any agreement around the edges. When there is a term used with no clear definition -- an ambiguous word, with no clear criteria for judging which definition applies in which circumstances -- some folks (me, anyway) might consider the term close to meaningless.

This is all just me trying to understand the situation -- I'm totally not advocating anything, since as I said I don't have a clue. These discussions are really interesting to me, though.

 

[CFexotics]

Searching the term 'lipstick' in the boa section on MM gets me all and only the the boas with the trait 'Kahl albino

The True lipsticks came from the Tom Burke Line bred Kahl Albino line animals.
The problem is People started to call any Albino a lipstick to charge more for them. And now the line is all but lost to be honest I know of only one breeder keeping the true Lipstick Line going.
Some breeders did have actual lipstick animals but once breed they listed all offspring Lipstick and they are all not it is a line trait like Pastel.
It is not a morph.
Hope that helps a bit