here is the original post from bush league site
#1 08-10-2010, 03:28 AM
WALL2WALLREPTILE
Bush-League Private
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 86
Is that a can of worms??? Let's open it!!!
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Well, I have thought about this post for quite a while.
I am going to just come out and say it.
So here goes.
Champagnes have a little problem.
As hatchlings, some of them behave in a fashion similar to wobbly Spiders.
Some grow out of it….others don’t.
Some never show any signs of having the wobble in their genes….
But ALL Champagnes carry this wobble…displaying it or not…it IS in their genes.
Early on, a few of people spent A LOT of money to get involved with the Champagne Projects.
It is NOT my intention to throw the Champagne project “under-the-bus” by posting this thread.
I was one of those early birds.
It is my intention to reveal the truth…and hopefully the truth will allow people to choose their purchases, as well as decide what animals they will breed together, with this knowledge in mind.
I have been involved in the Champagnes for a long time.
Brian Barczyk of BHB probably had the first Champagne. Originally he called it the “Mint Pearl”.
In conversations with him, he said that he believes that the “Mint Pearl” is indeed a Champagne.
I got involved at the same time as a few other breeder did.
My friend Brock Wagner and I, NERD, Amir, and Tom Carlton, and a few others all purchased ours along the same time frame.
That was not so many years ago…and the prices were much higher then…as can be expected.
I love the Champagne Projects…and like others, I spent big bucks to be involved with a project that I love.
So, it is not my intention to negatively effect the Champagne market by making these statements.
I believe that the BLBC is a place for truth. And that the members of this forum have the logic and insight to understand my reasoning for posting this thread….and in the end…I believe they will appreciate it.
As they say, it never hurts to tell the truth.
You can say you heard it here first…on the BLBC. The home of truth.
People will continue to purchase Champagnes…as they well should.
The Champagne morph does amazing things. It is a valuable trait.
We all continue to work with things like…
Cinnamon Pastels
Black Pastels
Spiders
Caramels
Womas
All of which carry genes with the potential for undesirable outcomes.
Why do we continue? Because they also lend so many positive characteristics to any breeding project.
Perhaps some of us hope that we can breed these “negative gene signatures” out of the animals…. Not likely in my opinion...But perhaps there is a possibility?
The majority of Champagnes do not seem to display this wobbly characteristic.
Those that do, usually only display it in a mild way…and usually only as youngsters. But all of them have the potential to display it in their offspring.
Prior to posting this thread, I could imagine that some breeders might like to say something like, “Well…My line of Champagne offspring never displays this wobble and I don’t think that mine carry it.”
The truth is, that ALL of the Champagnes originated from Noah in Ghana, Africa. They are the same line.
I am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that when any breeder combines Champagne with certain other morphs…they will too will see the “wobble gene signature” displayed.
(Kevin once said something to the effect of… ALL Spiders have the wobble trait…some show it more than others…and some are hardly noticeable at all...but they ALL have it to some degree.)
As many of you saw last week, I posted photos of my Saffron Ball Pythons.
Saffron is a combination of Champagne and Sable morphs.
And it is a great looking snake in my opinion.
Here is a photo of another one of the better looking Saffron.
Wait…there is more…the plot thickens….lol.
The Sables also have a similar problem. While you will not likely see the side-to-side twitch or wobble in the visual heterozygous form (just sable)…. You might see it in the Super Sable…homozygous form. It too is displayed only slightly…almost hard to notice in some examples.
Now…when you line the two traits up….Champagne and Sable together…. it seems to make the wobble more obvious. Similar to a wobbly Spider…unfortunately ALL of the Saffron display the wobble “gene signature“.
Now, If you breed a Sable to a Spider…you can create an incredible looking snake….however this combination does not seem to do very well. Most do not survive. It is as if you have concentrated these “negative gene signatures” too much.
I suspect that if you breed a Champagne Ball Python to a Spider….you will have a rather squirrelly snake on your hands. I have not personally done this breeding…but perhaps someone who is reading this has done it…and they can fill us in on the details of the outcome. (I know some people who have made the Champagne X Spider…and I would love to hear their comments.)
I would imagine that anyone who has produced a fair number of Champagnes knows about this little problem. Although little (if anything) has ever been mentioned about it publicly.
I also suspect that this may be the reason that you have not yet SEEN a Super Champagne.
If you already had the knowledge that Champagnes carry a wobble trait…would you try to make a Super?
(Sorry Winston…I know you were hoping for photos of a Super Champagne this year….and I hope if someone does produce a Super Champagne, that they will not end up with results similar to the Super HG Womas….AKA Pearls. Perhaps this post sheds some light on why the Super Champagnes are yet to be seen.)
I am not saying...Dont try to make a Super Champagne. By all means please feel welcome to give it a shot...hopefully I am wrong and the Super will be fine. But please, keep in mind how things could turn out, before you consider that attempt.
The Saffron eat…grow...shed….and defecate….I am sure they will eventually make good breeders too.
The degree of the wobble is similar to that of a spider.
As I said earlier, if the wobble is present in a baby Champagne…the wobble seems to disappear or diminish as they mature…I have hopes that perhaps the wobble may also diminish as the Saffrons mature.
(Note: Strangely the opposite….the wobble in Spiders is often not noticeable in babies…but becomes more pronounced as they animals mature.)
In closing this post…I would like to say…
I believe in good marketing.
I believe that sometimes it pays to keep your mouth shut about the projects that you are working on.
That is just good project management.
But keeping something like this quiet could eventually cost you.
(And I not talking about dollars here)
(Although I have been involved in a lot of Ball Python projects for quite a while... The Saffron are the first Ball Pythons that I have ever posted publicly.)
While I do like to keep some things rather quiet, for the sake of project management.... This issue is not something that I feel should be kept quiet…because I also believe in integrity.
Breeders should feel as compelled to share the less desirable results of their breeding attempts as they seem to be about sharing the positive outcomes.
Sharing this sort of information is beneficial to the hobby in it's entirety.
It allows us to remain responsible about what we are doing.
In my opinion, it is a part of being a responsible breeder.
I hope that this post will allow people to continue to confidently purchase and responsibly breed Champagnes and Sables….as well as Spiders, Caramels, Womas, Cinnys, and Blk Pastels or any other animal.
If this post gives even one hopeful breeder a moment of pause…so that they may wisely consider their breeding plans…then I believe it was worth my time to make these statements. This post should not have any negative impact on any morph projects or on anyone's business… on the contrary, I tried to make this post for the good of the hobby. I hope that is how it is received.
I welcome any comments or questions regarding this matter.
Thanks for reading.
Your friend,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-255-9255
970-245-7611
