Info Lair of Dragons - Jodi Lease / Travis Delaney: Questionable quarantine practices...

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Lair of Dragons (username "lairofdragons" is registered to Jodi Lease, but ad listed by Travis Delaney) has recently posted a group of ball pythons for sale in the classifieds. In this ad, they mentioned buying out a partial colleciton in order to obtain the animals they wanted, and sell off the rest. While this in itself is common practice, I feel there are some major red flags with what followed next regarding their extreme disregard for proper quarantine practices:

Here we go....
I bought out a partial collection with Ball Pythons I didn't need to get the ones I wanted....I should keep them but need some of the money I spent for other projects. So here is the stupidity.

All have been cooled and currently breeding as you read this. None have produced this season..so yes I am stupid for not keeping them.

***JUST FOR THE SELECT FEW....I FOUND NO REASON TO QUARANTINE THEM FOR ANY AMOUNT OF TIME...THOUGH SOME SAY I SHOULD HAVE JUST TO FIND OUT WHAT I ALREADY KNOW. IF YOU PURCHASE THEM AND FIND ANYTHING WRONG I WILL PAY YOUR VET BILLS AND REFUND YOU EVERY DOLLAR YOU SPENT INCLUDING SHIPPING COST BOTH WAYS.

NONE WILL BE SPLIT UP and NO TRADES and ALL PRICES ARE VERY FIRM...So please don't ask

Pic. 1
Adult Pair of Pastels. Female 1438g Male 1271g
Pastel female was paired with a Spider since November..she is the one on the left and if I could have got a better pic you can see the blue "shed" eyes...could be a P.O.S. can't fell eggs but doesn't mean there not there.
Pair only.......$1100.00 plus shipping...very firm

Pic. 2
Adult Albino's. Female 1465g Male 709g
Albino has been paired with a Albino sine November...She is the one with the old scar on her back. I have examined the scar and can find no reason why it won't shed off in a few sheds. She shed TODAY...so it could be the P.O.S. shed. My male started breeding her within 15 minutes. He is the one in the Pic. Can't feel eggs but may already be there.
Pair only.........$1500.00 plus shipping...very firm

Pic. 3
Nice Pied Male....682g
Just brought him home today and he is breeding my Axanthic as I type. I already have a breeding Pied male and if I didn't I would keep this one for sure. He's nicer than mine..ALOT more white but I am attached to the one I already have.
He is $1500.00 plus shipping ...very firm

If you want all 5...the Pastel pair, the Albino pair and the Pied male I will let you have them for $3800.00 plus shipping.

So there you have it...if you have any questions you can call me or text to 717-608-7424 or just send me an email, the old fashion way, to [email protected]

Thank you,

Travis
Lair of Dragons

So not only did they admit to bringing a large group of animals from an undefined source directly into their own collection without ANY quarantine whatsoever, they then proceeded to breed them to their existing animals right off the bat, including a male pied that was just acquired TODAY and is already breeding their existing axanthic female, and THEN decided to offer these unquarantined animals to the public. IMO, this not only poses huge risks to anyone purchasing the flipped animals being offered for sale, but also anyone that purchases any other animals from them as there is now NO way to know what may or may not have passed into their collection. I feel that this is information that the community needs to be aware of, hence my post here.

For reference, this is the classified ad:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226326

Screen shots of the ad:

I also saved the pictures of the animals that were posted within the ad and can post them here if needed.

How many more people need to suffer devastating losses before people in this hobby will get it through their heads that quarantine is NOT something to be taken lightly or skipped altogether? How can anyone be so cavalier with the health and safety of OTHER people's collections and livelihoods?

 

[bullies&balls]

Really, a bio thread over this. You better add all the big boys to it. I'm sure most will not "willingly" admitt to this, but the big boys have their little guys with the killer collections that rather fly under the radar t hen shine bright. Snakes are traded between these breeders all the time as well.

Is this a smart move on the persons part, Nope not really. Is this BIO worthy, Nope not really IMO.

 

[bkline]

I agree with bob. Not the smartest on his half but definitely not boi worthly. Atleast everyone that was interested in the "lot" of animals knew they weren't quarantined. Even tho they were some clean looking animals he posted in the pictures

 

[hhmoore]

So not only did they admit to bringing a large group of animals from an undefined source directly into their own collection

I'm not missing your point, but what does defining the source got to do with anything?

IMO, the seller is being up front about things, and letting the buyer decide. The seller also specifically states the following:

IF YOU PURCHASE THEM AND FIND ANYTHING WRONG I WILL PAY YOUR VET BILLS AND REFUND YOU EVERY DOLLAR YOU SPENT INCLUDING SHIPPING COST BOTH WAYS.

Granted, that was in response to the initial version of the ad, which was removed by the seller (in effect, saving people from themselves); but it doesn't change the statement.

He also clarifies it in response to a member's question

So...you are asking if I will cover everything in a quarantine room if these are introduced into that room and everything in there developes a problem...I would have to say no to that because there would be no way to prove if the so called "problem" was from what you got from me or from what you already have in there.
I am saying...buy them...quarantine them alone....vet check them with every test possible and if you find anything I will do what I said above.

A lot of people do quarantine multiple acquisitions in a single area, and it should be pretty obvious that every time a new animal is added, there is potential for cross contamination from either direction. The seller makes a valid point about isolating quarantine animals, even from other quarantine animals. He didn't do it himself, though, and that point isn't lost on anybody.

There are hundreds of people across the country that do essentially the same thing (minus, perhaps, immediately throwing new acquisitions with their current animals then sitting down to type up the ad). It's been mentioned many times that some vendors do a lot of buying and trading before the shows start, and a large portion of the time those animals are then put right up for sale without any mention of them being newly purchased. People are selling out right and left, and those collections are bought and sold - just like this.
Sure - that is one of the strongest arguments against resellers (flippers, if you want to go there) - and being commonplace doesn't make it "right"; but as a group they do serve a purpose in our hobby and in "the industry". As far as I'm concerned, the ones that are honest and upfront about the fact that they just got something are on the better end of the spectrum (I've come across many that are blatantly dishonest).

With it spelled out in black and white, the potential buyer is making an informed decision...find a seller that is being less forthright about it, and the complaints/concerns will take on a whole new perspective (IMO).

The obvious response to my post is to ask a) whether I would handle the sale the way this seller did, and b) if I would purchase those animals. The answer to both is No. a) I rarely purchase animals to resell, and when I have done so, I've usually had a buyer already lined up that is aware that I am purchasing it for them. (In some cases, I've still held onto the animals for 2-3 months before turning them over.) b) I've seen a few snakes for sale recently that I've had some interest in, and lost interest for the same reason - because they have already been paired with something. I'm incredibly picky, and I choose pairings based on specific desires. I don't want random babies from whatever males somebody decided to throw in with a female. There are VERY few females I would consider purchasing once they are paired with something; and more than likely I would insist on pictures of what she was paired with, as well as assurances that it was only that one male.

 

[lairofdragons]

Thank you Mr Moore..
And just for the record the account is under Jodi Lease from when we first registered with FC back n 2006 but the business is mine, and post are from me and me alone. She has nothing to do with the business "Lair of Dragons" it is just easier to leave the account info in her name than to start a whole new account because of older post and research from potential customers...so I have been told. if the account info can be switched over to my name and everything stays tied into the account let me know and I will do so.
Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

Im with Bob and Brendon
In all honesty this/ the info stated above IMHO didn't warrent a Bad Guy Boi at all. Take this how you will but IMO its a little childish to start a thread over something like that as it clearly states in the ad and Harald brung it into play

IF YOU PURCHASE THEM AND FIND ANYTHING WRONG I WILL PAY YOUR VET BILLS AND REFUND YOU EVERY DOLLAR YOU SPENT INCLUDING SHIPPING COST BOTH WAYS.
So...you are asking if I will cover everything in a quarantine room if these are introduced into that room and everything in there developes a problem...I would have to say no to that because there would be no way to prove if the so called "problem" was from what you got from me or from what you already have in there.
I am saying...buy them...quarantine them alone....vet check them with every test possible and if you find anything I will do what I said above.

REALLY STRAIGHT FOWARD the statement above makes it sound as if it should be a good guy thread with that type of backing on the animals

Yes many IMO I belive many larger breeders do the same now wether or not they say is questionable as well as some people even breed females that aren't quite 1500 grams Should we start a BAD GUY thread on each and everyone of them???

I've gotten animals from people I regularly do business withand have taken his animals and placed them right into my rack as I personally know the source Im getting the animals from and trust him 125% without a doubt now there's only 2 people I buy from that I trust that much to take whatever animal Im purchasing from there collection and place it right in my rack Now I guess I can have a Bad Guy Thread too right????
Now do I do that for every animal I recive NO I place animals I obtain from unknown people (People I dont know or know of that well) or animals from Shows into a tightly quarantined program

IDK deff not worthy of a Bad Guy Thread although SMH

 

[Shadera]

And yet, you freely admit you're buying albinos from Outback? Really? A bit hypocritical of you, to say the least.

I guess if they have something you want, flippin' is fine with you.

 

[mxracer4life]

Im with Bob and Brendon
In all honesty this/ the info stated above IMHO didn't warrent a Bad Guy Boi at all. Take this how you will but IMO its a little childish to start a thread over something like that as it clearly states in the ad and Harald brung it into play

IF YOU PURCHASE THEM AND FIND ANYTHING WRONG I WILL PAY YOUR VET BILLS AND REFUND YOU EVERY DOLLAR YOU SPENT INCLUDING SHIPPING COST BOTH WAYS.
So...you are asking if I will cover everything in a quarantine room if these are introduced into that room and everything in there developes a problem...I would have to say no to that because there would be no way to prove if the so called "problem" was from what you got from me or from what you already have in there.
I am saying...buy them...quarantine them alone....vet check them with every test possible and if you find anything I will do what I said above.

REALLY STRAIGHT FOWARD the statement above makes it sound as if it should be a good guy thread with that type of backing on the animals

Yes many IMO I belive many larger breeders do the same now wether or not they say is questionable as well as some people even breed females that aren't quite 1500 grams Should we start a BAD GUY thread on each and everyone of them???

I've gotten animals from people I regularly do business withand have taken his animals and placed them right into my rack as I personally know the source Im getting the animals from and trust him 125% without a doubt now there's only 2 people I buy from that I trust that much to take whatever animal Im purchasing from there collection and place it right in my rack Now I guess I can have a Bad Guy Thread too right????
Now do I do that for every animal I recive NO I place animals I obtain from unknown people (People I dont know or know of that well) or animals from Shows into a tightly quarantined program

IDK deff not worthy of a Bad Guy Thread although SMH

Just to clear things up, and I am by no means agreeing with the OP, but this isn't a "Bad guy" thread, it is merely an info thread, a little bit of a difference.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

And yet, you freely admit you're buying albinos from Outback? Really? A bit hypocritical of you, to say the least.

I guess if they have something you want, flippin' is fine with you.

I didn't say the issue was flipping. I said the issue was quarantine. Please re-read the above. I also have done business with Josh Norwood years ago and it went great, thus the basis for my decision now. The albinos in question went through quarantine there, and will go through quarantine here. Thus I see no problems.

This is not a Bad Guy thread. It is an Info thread.

 

[Drew Zaun]

Just to clear things up, and I am by no means agreeing with the OP, but this isn't a "Bad guy" thread, it is merely an info thread, a little bit of a difference.

Exactly.

I might also point out, without accusing anyone of anything, that a relaxed attitude towards quarantine may accompany a relaxed attitude towards other husbandry practices, and some people are extremely careful about their own collections and may wish to exclude such people based only on suppositions.

Having this thread here makes it easier for those people to find the information they need, while others are free to disregard if they choose.

 

[LauraB]

Having this thread here makes it easier for those people to find the information they need, while others are free to disregard if they choose.

Or they could have seen it right there in the ad, where the seller clearly (and truthfully) stated same - along with his guarantee. Obviously the seller isn't trying to hide anything.

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

Or they could have seen it right there in the ad, where the seller clearly (and truthfully) stated same - along with his guarantee. Obviously the seller isn't trying to hide anything.

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

Sorry I hit the enter button twice and two fast But I was going to say along with what is above is that sort of honesty alone is enough to make me want to do business with someone... I mean seriously you dont find that sort of honesty all the time anymore

 

[Drew Zaun]

Or they could have seen it right there in the ad, where the seller clearly (and truthfully) stated same - along with his guarantee. Obviously the seller isn't trying to hide anything.

But if someone does a little research 6 months from now? Could not that thread be altered or deleted? Is that not the point of this forum, things are here for the duration?

I agree the subject is open and honest, however he might not always indicate in every add that he doesn't quarantine...some people might like to know that.

 

[lairofdragons]

I do quarantine when I see the need to do so...
For example, If I buy from a show...you bet, you don't know whats in the air. Scares me to death to even to know I will be taking my snakes to a show. Everyone walks around handling everyone's snakes then mine. You have no idea what they were touching. I kept hand cleaner on my table at both ends and in the middle when I was doing dragons but still you never know if that worked.
If I buy from a breeder who imports..I always quarantine.
If I buy from a breeder with a questionable reputation.
If I simply do not like the looks of something, scars that look like they should have already healed, to much mucus in the mouth, etc.
If I have had hardly any communication with the seller.
Or if I just have a bad feeling.
My quarantine area is completely on a different floor in my house, upstairs and my reptiles are in the finished basement. Not just across the room or down the hall or in a room next door.

But these snakes that everyone is questioning about and my husbandry practices came from a breeder with a 21 snake collection, which is less than half the size of mine, I talked to him and asked the questions to let me know what kind of breeder he is. I examined every snake before I handed over the money. I almost bought the whole collection after I seen the condition of these snakes.

Anyone who wants to come to my house and examine my collection is more than welcome to. Just give me a call to make sure I am off work and so I have time to at least time to get dressed and pick up my house a little in case my three year old went on a tornado spree.

Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Travis, it is against BOI rules for you to be posting under another individuals account. I believe you need to message Rich (Webslave) to get the account name corrected.

 

[lairofdragons]

Thank you and if you check on Rich's page you will see I just did that not less than 5 minutes ago.
Mr Moore told me to get it changed and to contact him earlier today. I told him I would do it asap...just got home from work, just ate dinner, responded to the forums about me and wrote him.
Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

But if someone does a little research 6 months from now? Could not that thread be altered or deleted? Is that not the point of this forum, things are here for the duration?

I agree the subject is open and honest, however he might not always indicate in every add that he doesn't quarantine...some people might like to know that.

This is exactly the reason I brought this here.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Exactly.

I might also point out, without accusing anyone of anything, that a relaxed attitude towards quarantine may accompany a relaxed attitude towards other husbandry practices, and some people are extremely careful about their own collections and may wish to exclude such people based only on suppositions.

Having this thread here makes it easier for those people to find the information they need, while others are free to disregard if they choose.

This is the point I was getting at. It isn't necessarily about THESE specific unquarantined animals. It is about the obvious lack of concern for disease spread which can indicate a lack of concern for other things as well, including the risk they are posing to others. As someone that has been on the recieving end of such risk, I for one would appreciate it if there were threads like this that would warn me if certain people have admitted to not practicing any quarantine. If anyone else were to have the same practices as Travis (or lack thereof), I would hope it would be brought to the public's attention so that anyone else considering future potential business transactions can weigh this factor in their decision. "Guarantee" or no "guarantee", I will NOT risk my animals nor support someone that does so. I know quite a few others that feel the same way.

Travis, you say you observed these animals before purchasing. For how long? Are you 100% positive that NONE are carrying IBD and just haven't shown symptoms or happened to be having a "good day"? Are you 100% positive that NONE are carrying a paramyxovirus or something similar, just not symptomatic yet? That is the reason for quarantine -- to observe new animals in a separate state from your existing collection, to ensure that no diseases or parasites rear their ugly heads and thus end up transmitted to your healthy individuals. This takes months, not one day. Are you truly not worried whatsoever about these kind of risks? Do you not see how something like this lack of concern would send up red flags to anyone considering doing business with you?

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Also, this thread is here in the BOI because it is discussing a specific person, a specific issue, and a specific sale (or one being offered). Per Fauna rules, this cannot be discussed anywhere else unless done without discussing the actual seller -- which would defeat the entire purpose.