Posted by Joe P. on July 26, 2001 at 01:45:28:
In Reply to: this thread turning into something it was never meant to be??--come on--more inside-PLEASE READ posted by Ben Siegel on July 25, 2001 at 22:48:16:
Well, all this has been very interesting Ben. I imagine that the guilt, compounded by the possible consequences surrounding your decision, must have been too strong a motivator for you to ignore. I did indeed read you the post, directly off the forum, AFTER having posted it, prior to your call back. You see, I had already made my decision with reference to doing any business with you in the future. But nowhere in that post did I reference either you, or anything even remotely associated with the topic you initiated. Apparently you didn’t want to wait to see what happened, or where I was going with the thread. I guess you thought that by jumping out you might defuse some as yet unseen time bomb. Well, I can assure you that there would have been no explosion. I choose to do business with those that I find worthy of my business. I choose to recommend those that will reflect well upon me. I don’t and didn’t jump out and start bashing you. There is NOT A SINGLE REFEREENCE TO YOU or anything even remotely negative or sinister in the original post. This is route is the one you have chosen. Everything that follows is a damn sight more information than I ever would have publicly posted. Certainly, if someone asks, I’ll tell them the truth, what would you prefer? But, since you chose to play your cards face up before the dealer finished dealing, here’s my version of what happened.
On May 3rd I received an animal that Ben had had listed for sale for over a month. The price for which it was listed is irrelevant. Worth vs. value and all that. I paid virtually exactly what I was willing to pay for the animal listed, having offered slightly less than what I believed the animal to be worth and negotiated to a slightly higher figure. No mention of the animal being sold “AS IS” was ever made. No mention of it being sold as a “non-feeder”, “fresh import” or any other deviation from your normal guarantee was ever mentioned. I am NOT an importer, and by the way, neither are you. You have stated that you sell “AS IS” animals right off your list for $225.00 and guaranteed feeding, problem free animals, starting at $350.00.
Correct me if I’m wrong, the $475 I paid is well over the guaranteed price. As far as I was and am concerned, I purchased what was purported to be a problem free animal, fully covered by the usual live arrival and standard feeding assurances, which I assume I had also always done in the past. This is where all of contention has been generated from. You say that because you asked some ridiculous price for the animal, and I paid less that I should expect less. Thank God it was only a snake and not a new car. Sorry Ben, that crap just doesn’t cut it with me. In truth, you sold me a bad animal. You don’t want to make good on it either because you believe that I created the problem or because somewhere you have come to believe that if I a negotiates to pay less for a service, then they should expect less. Again, you can play that with somebody else, but not with me. I sell that crock and I don’t drink from it either.
Now, in order to put this entire thing straight, here is my account of what happened. I remind everyone, what you are reading was generated as a result of Bens actions or reaction to a inane post that made no mention of him, any problem or even anything slightly negative. Read the original post if there is some doubt in your mind. If in fact Ben version of the incident were the truth as I know it (this is not to say that he is lying. I’m sure he believes what he has said) there would be no problem. In fact, there is no problem even though my version of the events don’t jive with his. Freshly imported animals can be had by me and most likely anyone else in 10 lots from the same source that supplies Ben. The prices for such animals is quite a bit less (percentage wise) than what he sells his freshly imported singles for. There is certainly nothing wrong with that, it’s the nature of the business and who a profit is generated. I believe in my heart that Ben believes he was selling a fresh import. But I can assure you, such was never directly stated to me, and had it been, I would most assuredly not have paid a penny more than what I have paid his source directly for “special animals”, and that’s a damn site less than what I paid. Yes, I negotiated to buy the animal a reduced price, but I never agreed to any reduction in services or guarantee, of that you can be certain.
Here’s the Blow by Blow:
The animal arrived the 3rd, and on the 4th was sent out to the vet for cultures. There it was weighed in, checked for parasites inside and out, and upon return later that day, placed in quarantine. During the evening two days later, after having seemingly settled in to the point of actively hunting, the animal was fed a (4” snout to vent) weanling rat. Five days later on the 12th it regurgitated a large cylindrical hairball. Upon dissection, the plug was found to be comprised completely of hair with no other solid matter. Incidental regurgitations are a fact of life with Emeralds. Unpleasant as that may be, although it doesn’t happen often, it does happen and is not necessarily a death knoll. That fact (hope) compounded by the fact that this animal was and is one extraordinarily beautiful snake, prejudiced me, impaired my judgment, and in hind sight, perpetuated the only mistake which I will own in this incident. Rather than informing Ben immediately (which actually didn’t even occur to me), I decided to wait and see if the animal repeated the problem. Admittedly, the prudent thing to do would have been to inform Ben at the first sign that the animal was having a problem. I didn’t. Instead, I made a judgment call based upon the condition of the animal (outwardly perfect), the composition of the regurgitation (primarily not indicating HCL problems), and my relative familiarity with the species in general and more specifically, with ERS in particular. I felt relatively confident that this was an isolated, idiopathic and non-recurrent event. Obviously, my judgment was impaired by my own desire to keep this stunning animal. Plain old wishful thinking.
On the May 20th I again fed the animal and again on the 24th it regurgitated. At that point I opted to run a course of Flagyl through her in an effort to stop the hairball regurgitations. After 5 appropriately spaced half doses, followed by another clean fecal exam, and a full reload treatment with PB8, the animal was fed another weanling rat on the 20th of June. This time no regurgitation ensued. On the 27th she passed a normal solid bowel movement, the bolus of which was composed of the normal feces and hair. Again under microscopic exam she checked out clean. Things were looking up.
On July 4th the animal was fed a small rat (5” snout to vent) (yeah, I know, the forth of July and I’m feeding snakes….I have no life). Five days later on the 9th she again regurgitated another hair plug from what was otherwise a fully digested meal. At this point I really should have called it quits and called Ben, but I didn’t. Instead, I decided to give it one last go. One more shot at keeping her, after all, these hairball regurgitations were something I had seen before and successfully dealt with. But in truth, I new that more often than not such repetitions inevitably escalate into more serious problems. Again I was being influenced by my love for the beauty of this animal. I didn’t want to believe that this was ERS. I was attempting to dismiss the regurgitated hair as part of an adjustment to a foreign diet. I was (as EU once so adeptly put it) in full blown denial.
On the 20th I fed her again and like clockwork on the morning of the 25th I found the regurgitated plug. This time the plug consisted of an undigested skull and the still attached vertebral column as well as the now customary hair. I was finally convinced and new I had to call it quits. I emailed and subsequently called Ben to report the problem and requested an in-store credit against the purchase of a future animal.
Over the course of the past 12 months I have purchased 3 amazons and 4 emeralds from Ben. I have recommended dozens of individuals to him many of which purchased from him. I have even gone as far as to recommend individual animals that he was selling OVER animals that I had for sale! Why? Because this is what I do. I conduct my business with the belief that MY best self-interest lies firmly implanted in the best interest of my customers. This has been the first problem that I’ve had with any of the animals purchased from Ben. While everything was going along well, Ben was happy as hell to take my money, and my recommendations right to the bank. However, at the first sign of trouble, just like some sleazy insurance adjuster, decides to deny the only claim I’ve ever made. In short, Ben sent me a regurgitating snake. When I received the animal it weighed 2.2lbs. It was carrying a normal parasite load, and was as beautiful and outwardly healthy an animal as any I have ever seen. I purchased this animal under the same assumptions that I had previously had, an understanding that it had fed, and had been doing well for him. After all, it had been at his place for at least a month and was listed for sale in his web gallery for an obscene amount of money! (If I had paid more would it not have regurgitated?) I feel completely justified in asking for a full credit. I am returning to him the animal in perfect weight, and virtually in better physical condition than that in which it was received. After all, it’s completely parasite free now! L0L! The only difference between this animal now, and this animal when it was sold to me was that I now know, AS DOES BEN, that what he sold me was freezer bait. Now I’m not suggesting that Ben new that when he sold it, I’m feel certain he didn’t. But had I decided to pay $600 or $800 for it, would it not have had the same problem? It’s not as if he wouldn’t have accepted more money. But does the fact that I negotiated the price down to a more reasonable figure in any way absolve him of his responsibility to back the animal up? In my opinion Ben is using the time factor, which is in this case is a NON-factor as his excuse to shirk his obligation to make good on a bad animal.
In all fairness to Ben, I’m not certain any other big dealer would honor my request either. Maybe that says something about who you should consider buying from. If a dealer can’t afford to honor the needs and satisfaction of his customers, then why purchase anything from them? Price? Not hardly! I paid more for this snake from Ben (the big dealer) than I would have had to, had I asked the importer to get it back from Ben and sell it to me directly! But the truth is that I don’t begrudge anyone the right or need to make a living. I was and always will be willing to allow Ben or anyone else to make a few dollars off of me as long as there is some value (in this case the warranty so to speak) exchanged in return. Besides, supposedly the more or more often you buy, the better the pricing becomes, right? The more consideration you get, right? The better you are treated, right? Duhhhhh maybe not… this might be that learning curve, or wake up call that Paul Lord mentioned in his post.
Well, I tell you this, I certainly honor my customers, and there are plenty of them out there to attest to that. I may not be Ben Siegel Reptiles, but then today, I’m pretty glad of that. Quite simply I believe in treating my customers the way I wish to be treated, the way I expect to be treated, the way I demand to be treated by those vendors with whom I choose to do business!
Was I wrong in not informing Ben immediately? Yes, apparently I was. Would having done so made even the slightest bit of difference in the outcome or condition of this animal? Absolutely not! Offering me half credit back I find insulting. It’s not about the money, it never has been with me and anyone who knows me, knows that! Hell, I’ve already doubled the cost of the animal in vet bills alone! I do for every animal I bring into the collection! Ben, you keep your little money. Hell, retire on it, revel in it! But assured, it’s the last of my money, and or any associated business which might come via my recommendations that you will ever see. Every businessman knows, that repeat customers are what garners their success. I’m happy for you that you have enough of them that you can afford to lose some. Thank goodness that there are others willing to keep their word, walk the walk and equitably handle their customers problems and concerns. You see Ben, I’ll accept my culpability in the matter, and I’ll live with it. Both you and I know, all I would have to do is write a simple letter and have the entire thing charged back. Credit card protection is a wonderful thing. But that would be the cheesy thing to do. Accepting half a credit from you be akin to acceptance of half the responsibility for this animals condition. If I believed time to be a relevant factor, I would never have said anything at all, but the fact is, that it played no part at all in what transpired other than to give you an excuse.
In closing I’ll say again that it was never my intention to name Ben Siegel Reptiles publicly at any point during this string. Nor did I intend to divulge any of the details concerning this matter. I had no intention of bringing it out publicly at all! My sole intent was to reinforce to Ben, that I had not only been a very frequent repeat customer, but had also recommended a great many others to him as well. The string was to be used to leverage and hopefully strengthen my case in an effort to have him resolve the matter favorably and equitably for everyone. Unfortunately, that’s not what happened. I don’t accept any responsibility for that either.
If after reading this, my position is judged by you to be untenable as several of you indicated previously, then I’ll accept that as a fault, and embrace it as my own. Perhaps I’m just a greedy bastard who wants it all his own way. If so, it’s an imperfection I’ll have to live with, whose consequences I’ll have to bear. However, hopefully I’ve made it clear as to why I expect of Ben what I requested. The fact is, that I don’t care if Ben has given everyone else on the planet free tree boas 100 times over. What I DO care about is how I was treated on the only occasion I ever had to approach him with a problem. If that seems ridiculous, then so be it, I can live with that too.
'>
