Bad Guy Jennifer Holstius - Flipper

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

Okay, so a few months ago (somewhere between Nov-Dec 2010), I started downsizing my collection a little. My wife and I are expecting and I needed to cut back for obvious reasons. I had a foursome of African house snakes that I didn't have any luck selling them locally, so I just decided "screw it" and decided to give them away to a good home.

After a week, the only inquiry I got was from one Jennifer Holstius from Pensacola, FL (about an hr away from Mobile, AL). After I piqued her brain on what she knew about the species and her own experience in herps, I felt confident enough to let her have them. She met me shortly after to acquire them. I even followed up on her a week or so later, as a couple of the snakes were finicky eaters.

During our corraspondence, she raved on how she and her friend were getting more into herps and hopefully starting up a business breeding and selling such. Gee, if I had a dollar everytime I heard that song, but hey, who am I to squelch someone's ambitions? In any case, she specifically mentioned her excitement at wanting to breed these snakes I was giving her.
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So I browse the ads on Fauna today and find this:

African House Snakes
I have a pair of African House snakes - male and female. The female is a dark phase and the male is a red-spotted. I've been trying to find them a home locally but nobody is interested in them. I need to find them a new place as soon as possible. Both are roughly sub-adult and are eating f/t. The female is in hibernation, though.

I am letting them go for $65 each or $115 together. I am capable of shipping, though I would much prefer to meet in person.

If you are anywhere near Pensacola, FL and are interested, perhaps we can arrange something. As for shipping, I will be using http://shipyourreptiles.com . I will need your address so I can give you a quote. I am a FIRST TIME SHIPPER, so please bare with me. I don't want to risk the health of these snakes and will take every precaution I can.

If interested, please respond or email me at [email protected] . If I don't respond right away, try emailing my personal email at [email protected]

Pictures will be added later if they don't upload now.

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Name is the same, username is the same (RamiChan), email address is the same, location is the same, descriptions of the 2 snakes match...this is her.

Regretfully, its been a few months since she got the snakes from me, and only a couple weeks ago, against my better judgment, I deleted our email corrospondence. Obviously, today I certainly regret that decision.
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I know it is only speculation on my part, but I now believe that Jennifer acquired these snakes from me with the intention of re-selling them. Not a crime, I know....but still, sellers beware. I know we can't always control what people do with the animals we sell to them, but turning around and selling WC snakes with spotty feeding histories is a little shady. Also, let it be known that, with exception of one, these snakes were all wildcaught imports and while they were generally healthy, their appetites were not fantastic and a couple have cosmetic injuries. She's a flipper, whether intentional or not.

 

[SPJ]

It's been a few months since she got them from you. Maybe circumstances have changed. Have you asked what happened? The ad says 1.1 but you said you gave her 4 of them. Maybe she decided only one pair was what she could raise. Since you haven't tlaked to her and don't know the reasoning, I think it was premature to post this negative thread without all of the facts.

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

In her ad, she states "I need to find them a new place as soon as possible"...then she slaps a $65 price tag on what are essentially normal animals.

First off, let's call wine what is wine and what is bread bread. If you genuinely trying re-home something ASAP, money isn't an issue. You just want them to go to a good home, right? I can tell you right now, marking them up at nearly twice the market value is not going to "get them into a new place as soon as possible."

This alone is what makes me speculate that this course of action was pre-meditated, and not some "OMG, I need to pay some bills" or "OMG, I have to move to an apartment that doesn't allow pets." Just seems fishy to me.
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Again, I suppose 3 months is an adequate period for quarantining, and it is certainly her prerogative to do whatever she wants with her animals. I just wanted to make everyone aware that this is how she obtains some the animals she sells. Not far off from being a Craigslist flipper in my book.

 

[ophidile]

Jen got some corns from me and we still chat from time to time.
I hope she does not mind me talking of our private convos, but it's nothing ill so I don't see why it wouldn't be okay: she has mentioned the house snakes to me several times - she was excited about them but after having them for a while she said she decided to focus more on one or a few species (mostly corns).
I think she was just excited, getting in to herps. She jumped at the opportunity to pick up some new snakes but after a while has thought better of it - I don't think this is anything wrong on her part.

Basically, I think she is still learning the ropes and what her personal goals are for the reptile biz. I'd vouch that she did not get these snakes with the initial intent of flipping them. I do have one question - did you give the snakes contingent on them going to a forever home or not? I know you didn't want them flipped, but did you make it clear you wanted them to NEVER be sold?

 

[Shadera]

Have you spoken with her about it? I'm curious as to how you know for a fact that those are the animals that came from you in the first place. I'd be making concrete sure of something like that before trashing a seller in their ad. And even then, that can get you into trouble here.

Sometimes situations do change, and I don't see how this makes her a bad person if they are in fact animals from you. It kind of sounds like you're just mad that she might be able to get a few bucks out of them whereas you couldn't.

If you didn't have it in writing that they weren't to be sold and if they had to go they were to come back to you, there's not a whole lot you can say about where they go.

 

[VegasBilly]

Maybe a new category should be added.."Hurt Feelings". A post like this is more suited under this header than as a "Bad Guy" post. Once a transaction is completed the recipient is free to do as he/she feels. Way premature posting IMHO.

Bill

 

[RamiChan]

I would have appreciated you try to contact me before starting this. Ophi was right! I had every intention of keeping them, but when I started realizing that my excitement for them died down after realizing I really needed to focus...I decided to back down.

The truth is, I was afraid to actually confront you about taking them back. I don't have the capabilities of actually driving out to you anymore now that my car has a cracked radiator (Want proof? my dad's buying a new one soon to replace it).

Now, to be fair, I'm not actually earning money off them. I took my ads down everywhere (or have been in the process of doing so). And yes, I had intentions of keeping two of the four. I'm actually talking to someone else who lives out there in Lilian, AL who is interested in them. He's even willing to take the little guy who I CANNOT get to eat. I tried a gecko before and he refused to eat. I'm not selling that one - the guy's taking him for free. I actually realized 65 was a lot and was going to try to cut that back.

I didn't mean to come off like that. I have kept every snake I have except for recently - where I'm trying to literally cut back on what I have. I rehomed a rescue ball python only because I literally don't have the room for it and it won't fit into breeding plans.

Do I plan on breeding? Yes. Do I plan on starting up some sort of business? Yes. But I REALLY need to cut back. I've been asked by my parents (who are supporting me) to try to limit what I have, and I have been. Originally I tried to find somebody to take those AFH that I KNOW before I put up ads, but nobody was interested. And as I said, I didn't know how you would react if I asked if you could take them back. I am a bit paranoid at times.

As for their feeding? The two I put up are eating FINE. Both have eaten for me. Both have shed regularly. I had every intention of keeping them but as I have told multiple people..I need to focus on what I really want to work with. I had plans on keeping the bigger of the three, plus the little one, in case I did decide to breed them.

As I said, I really would have wished you did try to contact me. You could have messaged me directly instead of jumping the gun like this. And like I said, I found somebody who is willing to take them and we aren't exchanging cash. He has other african house snakes and even owns the reptile exhibit at Alligator Alley. Look, if you want to discuss this more with me, please do so. I am in no way out to make money off free snakes. If I did, I wouldn't have as many as I do now.

You want to know how many I have? I have 29. I had 30 the day before yesterday but I rehomed a ball python. I'm still weeding out what I need and what I don't need. And am I really earning money? Not really. I have quite a bit of money invested into all of my snakes. After all, why on earth would I have 29 snakes? Which, by the way, they are all HEALTHY and eating fine.

Oh! As to why I put the price tag of 65 on them? I looked online and I found a couple of red-spotted that were being sold in various places around 50-70 dollar markers. I went in between. And I have been lowering the price when people say they can't afford it. I even offered one for $40 when somebody contacted me!

And have I sold other snakes? Heck no. I rehomed a ball python, that was it. I have not sold or rehomed ANY OTHERS since probably October when a dumeril boa I had was getting to be too much trouble for me (aggression, etc)...but I didn't name a price. I didn't even PUT it up. Somebody called ME and I told him to make an offer. I told him everything going on with the snake. He gave me the offer, I took it.

I would appreciate it if you didn't insult me and say that I'm getting snakes just to sell for higher price. Definitely not. These are the only ones I am trying to put up, but because there was no interest in them in the area, I came here. I've asked -everywhere-.

I am passionate about my snakes. I really am. If you even talked to me for more than just the little bit that we did - I'm sure you'd realize that. Ophi is indeed a friend of mine - and I still have the snakes I got from her!

Is it wrong for me to change my mind about something I was originally excited about, due to a change in circumstance? Trust me, I didn't -want- to put them up but I knew that I no longer had the room for those - and I realized that, after three months, that I won't be interested in breeding those kind for at least a couple of years.

What more do you want me to say? I'm sorry, alright? Also, I had every intention of trying to make it to those meets out in Mobile. But can I? No. My college classes run until 5:40pm and I end up staying until 8pm anyway for photo printing and processing. When I come home, I spend at least two hours a day in the snake room making sure everyone is okay. Sundays I do a mass cleaning and feeding. I have spent 10 hours in there at one point just to try to rearrange the room to MAKE room. On top of that, I am also balancing being a full time college student with the homework and things I have to do on a daily basis. I'm very passionate about my snakes and my school work. I am -always- talking about snakes. People at school come up to me all the time about it. I talk to people online. I talk to my sisters who get annoyed with me about it because one is afraid of snakes. I have a woman my mom knows wanting to come over so I can help her get over her fear.

No, I'm not in this to make money until the babies come. I'm spending more money than I am making anything right now. You want more? Please, feel free to talk to me. I don't appreciate problems like these being made public when you don't have the full story.

 

[RamiChan]

I apologize if I rambled or got overly defensive. I have a tendency to ramble (my teachers have told me as such), and I tend to defend myself quite a bit. I've also not had the best of weekends and this adds onto it. I just really wish we could have discussed this in private before it got to this point. I took down my ad, by the way.

 

[scaledverts]

Have you spoken with her about it? I'm curious as to how you know for a fact that those are the animals that came from you in the first place. I'd be making concrete sure of something like that before trashing a seller in their ad. And even then, that can get you into trouble here.

Sometimes situations do change, and I don't see how this makes her a bad person if they are in fact animals from you. It kind of sounds like you're just mad that she might be able to get a few bucks out of them whereas you couldn't.

If you didn't have it in writing that they weren't to be sold and if they had to go they were to come back to you, there's not a whole lot you can say about where they go.

This pretty much hits on the head I think.

Another point......the title says she's a bad guy because she is a "flipper." While I think this is a questionable business practice, it DOES NOT merit a BAD GUY post. Crap if you vend at ANY reptile show you will see a TON of deals being done before the show between dealers. When you then walk around the show later, many of the reptiles involved in the trades are on the tables for sale. Again, what is so bad about this? I personally do not like it but that is just my own personal opinion. You will see "arguments" about there not being enough time for quarantine etc. But I really don't think they have any merit. If you purchase an animal from someone, why do you have to put it into quarantine for a specific amount of time before you can sell it? What exactly does this accomplish? The person who ultimately ends up with the animal should still being quarantining the animal. So IMO the length of time that a person has had an animal really has no bearing on them selling it.

Just because someone else is willing to wait for the snakes to sell but you were not DOES NOT make them a bad guy.

 

[RachelSS]

I have to say this; once the animals are out of your possession, you pass them along to someone else, there's nothing you can do.

If you're that upset about her getting rid of the animals, you should have kept them for yourself, or sold them for profit. They're hers now, she can do as she wants with them in regards to selling them.

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

I admit I jumped the gun a little. This is not the first time I had someone get snakes from me and ended up dumping them shortly after, and I suppose it hurt a little to see animals I gave away at no charge to what I thought was going to be a good home.

If you didn't have it in writing that they weren't to be sold and if they had to go they were to come back to you, there's not a whole lot you can say about where they go

did you give the snakes contingent on them going to a forever home or not? I know you didn't want them flipped, but did you make it clear you wanted them to NEVER be sold?

No. I'm not a rescue, so I can't really warrant any such agreement. I suppose I was naive to assume they would be going to a permanent home, and that the verbal implication was enough to be trusted. Shame on me.

The truth is, I was afraid to actually confront you about taking them back.

I found somebody who is willing to take them and we aren't exchanging cash. He has other african house snakes and even owns the reptile exhibit at Alligator Alley.

It appears that I'm not the only one who made false assumptions. I would have definitely taken them back, and to be fair, I would have found a way to meet you in your city as you were willing to drive the full distance to get them from me. In retrospect, I would have favored this scenario to the route you have taken now.

I know exactly who you are referring to as the individual who works with Alligator Alley. Here's some irony for you:

The last time something like this happened, when someone purchased some snakes from me, I actually did make the offer to buy them back if he ever found himself needing to find homes for them. Instead, he gave them to the guy with the reptile exhibit at Alligator Alley [let it be known that this individual is not an actual employee of AA; he simply has an agreement with them to have his reptile exhibit on their premises].

Here's something you should know. This little "reptile exhibit" is actually outdoors under a tent where temperature is hard to control. Needless to say, the health of any reptile displayed like this for days on end would be comprised (save for the native alligators that surround it, of course). You may have very well sentenced the snakes to a grim fate of either freezing now or overheating in the upcoming months.
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I am passionate about my snakes. I really am. If you even talked to me for more than just the little bit that we did - I'm sure you'd realize that.

I did...which was why it rather was upsetting for me to stumble upon an ad for snakes that I know I gave willingly to someone who sounded so sincere about keeping them and breeding them. If I wanted to sell them and make money, I would have. There's plenty of folks around here I could have give them to that I knew would have tried to sell them the next day. But I didn't want that for them...I hate that herps are swapped around like baseball cards so flippantly (granted, I've done some trading myself in the past, but I will also say Ive usually regretted it in the long run). I suppose I should have made myself more clear that I really did not want these snakes succumbing to this fate. That is my fault, and this is a lesson to be learned for the future.

While I do sympathize with life situations that come up unexpectantly, perhaps this can be a lesson for you. I've seen this time and again where people are so eager to turn their hobby into a business without really being prepared for it, and then they end up losing money and making ethical compromises later, which the animals end up taking the brunt of some of those decisions. I'm ranting in generalities now, so I'll stop there.

Again, this is the second time in a year that I found out snakes I sold are to end in a dinky little tent in Summerdale, AL, destined to be roasted alive when the heat of summer arrives. The reptile community can be a small circuit in both of our areas (and everywhere in between), so with species as obscure as African house snakes, it's not hard to for me to determine who has what.

I overreacted, and I am sorry. Haven't had the greatest weekend and to top it off, I have drive over an hour away to take my most cherished snake to the vet in the morning. I wasn;t expecting to see your ad and I just flipped out.

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

And to everyone who said I don't have any right to complain about this....you're absolutely correct. I really don't.

Another point......the title says she's a bad guy because she is a "flipper." While I think this is a questionable business practice, it DOES NOT merit a BAD GUY post. Crap if you vend at ANY reptile show you will see a TON of deals being done before the show between dealers. When you then walk around the show later, many of the reptiles involved in the trades are on the tables for sale. Again, what is so bad about this? I personally do not like it but that is just my own personal opinion. You will see "arguments" about there not being enough time for quarantine etc. But I really don't think they have any merit. If you purchase an animal from someone, why do you have to put it into quarantine for a specific amount of time before you can sell it? What exactly does this accomplish? The person who ultimately ends up with the animal should still being quarantining the animal. So IMO the length of time that a person has had an animal really has no bearing on them selling it.

Correct. It is this flippant and often uncaring mentality that we have tolerated that really makes me consider doing this as a business anymore. Its the same reason I quit working at the LPS I was employed at for 10+ years. I hate selling an animal and not knowing whether it's going to be put on someone's table in 15 minutes, or show up on a craigslist ad the next day, or God willing, they actually keep the thing for several years and give it a healthy life. It sickens me sometimes. And this hobby is showing very little signs of moving away from this mindset. Animals are not baseball cards.

 

[RamiChan]

I hear you on not having the greatest of weekends. It's nowhere here nor there, but I'm having to deal with loosing a family member I have known since I was a little toddler. I really wish you had talked to me first before all of this happened, however. I do feel really bad it ended this way. I really am new to this, and I did learn my lesson about jumping the gun as far as taking in new pets without thinking carefully. I've actually decided to no longer take in rescues because there's no telling WHAT I might get. I've decided to go with breeders instead - although that doesn't mean I'll be rehoming the rescues I have taken in, or the snakes I still have. I'm still trying to figure out how to have the room for these, and hopefully by getting these snake racks built I'll be able to and won't run into this problem of being over run.

And as I said, I had every intention of keeping the snakes. In fact, I absolutely LOVE Graham. I had no plans of giving him up at all, but circumstances state that..though I have proper caging for them, unfortunately they're in the way. I ran out of shelf space and I have a set up on the floor (I hate to say it). I have aquariums all over the place and have even begun placing cages on the bed (since it is in a guest bedroom). I'm also trying to make room for a potential mice breeding project, since the people I bought in bulk from no longer sell and I won't be able to get as good of a deal anymore. (Used to be able to buy 50 adult mice for $40, now I have to pay $50 to get 50.)

I really don't consider myself a flipper. I had no intentions of doing this when I first got them. I was extremely excited, and I spent days handling and researching them when I got them. But when I started doing heavy research on what I REALLY wanted to focus on...that's when I realized I had made a mistake. That's why I only talk to people if they have a snake I can use or would be good for my future projects.

And I know how you feel about animals you gave up being flipped around..I would hate that if it happened to me, but..I can assure you prior to the guy from AA, I was trying to make sure that somebody with knowledge about the species actually took them.

I admit, I don't know proper pricing to african house snakes. I took what I found and tried to do an even match, so to speak, and also wanted to make sure that those getting them knew what they were getting into.

I had more requests for ball pythons and boas than I did anything else, which is why my last resort was shipping out of state. What ended up happening though is I got into contact with the guy from AA...though, to me, it sounded like the AHS would be kept at his house.

Though now you've got me worried about this deal I've got with him, and I will be talking to him about it as soon as I get a chance.

I do want to make a warning to you and other Gulf coast herps though. But I think I'd rather email you the information instead. There is someone else in the local area who has proven herself to be a flipper..selling animals she gets within a week for twice as much, if not more. I've talked to some of the people she's dealt with and it turns out she's not even 18. I won't say more, but if you want the information, I'll tell you what I know. Just let me know.

I do apologize for this misunderstanding. I don't want to come off as someone that is a flipper, because I'm really not. I don't make money off the snakes. That money I got (if somebody bought them) would have been used to go towards the care of my other snakes. I would have bought cages, more food, and probably put it towards snake racks or something. I don't expect my parents to help support me entirely, so it would have helped.

If you want to discuss things with me more, let me know. I can try to get Ace back from the guy from AA, but that'll probably be very difficult and cause more drama I really don't want to be involved with when I have school and new family issues to worry about. But if I have to, I will.

You have my email, so feel free to email me. I've learned my lesson - even before I put them up for sale. This just drills the nail right back in that I need to watch out what I do.

 

[Cent_Phillips]

sorry to read all this

 

[RachelSS]

To Jennifer: If you WANT to keep the snakes, why don't you sell all your aquariums and switch to tubs? You can keep all your animals, the tubs stack and take up MUCH less room, and you can keep species with similar heat requirements hooked up to the same thermostat for heat?

 

[RamiChan]

I plan on doing that, but I'd have to obtain the tubs first before I can sell the aquariums. And, I might breed AHS in the future, but right now I'm not. I really need to focus on what I want to work with and cut back on how many I have.

Thank you for the advice though, and that is definitely something I've already looked into.

 

[Smash39]

Ok so my question is who the hell cares if she wants to sell them? It does not matter if she paid or did not pay for them, they are now hers and she can do whatever she wants with them and it's really none of anyones business what she wants to do with them. You made a bad guy post because you didn't want to sell them and someone else does? WOW. This is America where we practice capitalism, it's ok to make money you know. It just irks me that people got on to this girl for trying to sell some animals. Do you want her to just give them away because you couldn't make money on them?

What exactly is your problem with her trying to sell them?

 

[Focal]

I would be a little upset if I gave someone some snakes for free and then saw a for sale ad, especially if it didn't mention they were wild caught or had eating problems, however, this should have just been an info thread in case someone was sold a sick, non-eating snake.

Personally, I would not sell something that I got for free and invested no money in. Yes, some believe there is nothing wrong with that, HOWEVER, don't bash the OP because he has different ethics than you. Some people believe in doing nice things, like giving snakes away for free, and turning around and making a profit is legal, but unethical in my eyes.

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

WOW. This is America where we practice capitalism, it's ok to make money you know. It just irks me that people got on to this girl for trying to sell some animals. Do you want her to just give them away because you couldn't make money on them?

What exactly is your problem with her trying to sell them?

We've kinda made up over this issue, so this response is after the fact at this point.

In my original ad months ago, I did imply (although did not specify or demand) that I would like the animals going to a good home. It was my hope they would go to a permanent home. When Jennifer acquired the snakes from, I don't recall actually telling her to give me a call if she ever decided to get rid of them. I want to say I did (I said this to any all the other people in our area that I sold/gave AHSs to), but I don't recall saying this so I don't want to say that I did, ya know?

That said, I was just surprised and shocked to see animals I gave willingly to a good home up for sale so soon and the amount she was asking really implied she was out more for money than to get the snakes to a good home herself. But I already stated all of this before in my second post.

Anyway, you're right. I don't have a leg to stand on, and I overreacted to a situation that was out of my hands. Upsetting, but in the end, you're right; its her animals.

 

[bullies&balls]

BULLCRAP !!!! comments lie smashes are just fly by night make as much off what I can when I can. Go collect cans on the side of the street if you so proud to be American, keep her clean. Didn't sound like the seller couldn't move the snakes, but was rather picky about were they went. If the OP didn't give a crap he could have dumped them in anyone lap, not the case here. Smashes comments resonate the type of behavior that individuals do all the time to get cheap, free animals. Telling somone what they want or need to here to get an animal off them and then not doing that is NOT ok. In America or any other country, city, state, township, villege.