Interesting but unethical Hybrid attempt.

[YJHB]

Off topic a little bit, but I have heard there is a hip dysplasia registry that keeps track of the dysplasia history of the ancestral dysplasia history in certain dog breeds, I think that is a good idea. A parallel problem in snakes, in that it may be genetic, are the eyeless snakes that emerge sometimes, I do not know if a registry would be helpful in those cases, what do you think?

Probably being slightly off topic here is a good thing; this seems to be a hotly controversial subject.

Lucille, you have a great idea. A registry along the lines of the OFA would be of much benefit to the reptiles we keep. I feel it would discourage the breeding of genetically flawed animals, thus reducing the unnecessary suffering this can cause. I had a Golden Retriever stud who was OFA registered. I only would breed him to females who were also OFA registered. NONE of his puppies had this painful, debilitating and unfortunately comon disease. He eventually died of old age at 14 1/2...an end all dogs should get to have. Many are robbed of this because they came from parents who carried this infirmity.

As far as ethical considerations of hybridization, I agree with Paul and Lucille. Think of it this way...we already have 'messed' with a species the first time we propagated it in captivity. We don't mean to change a species, but in order to keep a captive healthy, we do remove all challenges to that animals survival. Instead of coming from a long line of survivors as in the wild, the animals we produce in captivity are the ones that do well in captivity. Our 'genetically pure' pets probably wouldn't do well in the wild. Therefore, WE HAVE CHANGED THEM. The argument that it is reprehensible to produce hybrids in captivity is fundamentally flawed from this standpoint.

The only danger (very real and disturbing) obviously comes from the unethical and the uninformed, who would breed hybrids and sell them as purebreds. In a perfect world, this wouldn't happen, but what we have to think about in order to further our hobby and help captive reptiles is to remember what is good for reptiles *in captivity*. What is good for them is good for those in the wild, as some persons breed endangered animals who aren't furry or cute. Wider public knowledge comes as a consequence of wider public acceptance, and hybridization could help us to achieve this goal. Hybridization is interesting to people, and this attracts attention. In my opinion, public opinion and attention is so important, because it shapes things like responses to cruelity to herps (when is the last time you saw the Animal Cops on Animal Planet arrest someone for being cruel to a reptile?) as well as conservation efforts.

I say we should make every effort to keep pure lines pure, but hybrids should also have a place.

 

[Scott Ashton]

A large python, that grows in excess of 15 feet that is not regularly found past India, that also lives a semi aquatic life mixing with a West African python, that grows usually no larger than 5 or so feet...
Evolution brought them apart from each other for a reason... If nature had intended for them to hybridize, then they would've evolved in the same area, from a common ancestor.
But, thats just my opinion and it's just my "no good info with fancy names slapped on".

You are entitled to your opinion.

I would suggest that you can use opportunities such as this to research and actually master concepts such as the theory of evolution.

You are young and you have much to learn.

Do yourself a favor and sit back and take it easy - there is no reason to attack others on this site just because you are frustrated at the fact that you don't know everything. No one knows everything (and those that do are people you should stay far away from).

Ask questions, be humble, and if you show a genuine interest in learning there are many very knowledgeable people on this forum who I'm sure would be more than willing to augment your education.

There are many reasons why genetically compatible species don't interbreed. Geographic isolation is but one. Your homework assignment is to research genetic drift.

-Scott Ashton

 

[Chris@TSE]

off the argument for a second....

wasnt this already attempted?

 

[Dr Owens]

wasnt this already attempted?

I wasn't aware of anyone ever trying this until just about a month ago when these same pictures were posted on the BCF. As far as I know this is a new endeavor...at least no one has ever talked publicly about trying something like this before.

 

[YJHB]

Yeah it was. On the first page of this thread, two different kinds of pythons are shown copulating, and ethical concerns were raised about a pairing like this...

 

[YJHB]

I think they regularly breed ATB's and Basins, though...

 

[Dr Owens]

Incidentally, the guy who got the male ball to breed the female granite burm also posted pics of the same male ball breeding an albino labyrinth burm. (At least he was trying to breed her...the pics weren't all that great.)

 

[coyote]

Oh! The door has been opened. One comment about the new "designer dogs". Repeatedly I keep hearing them referred to as "hybrids". They are not. They are "mixed breeds". Many of these Puggels (pug/beagle), labradoodles etc are being sold in excess of $1000 per pup! And, people are actually paying that much for them! What burns my behind is that a few MILLION dogs and cats are euthanized in the US EVERY YEAR because there are no homes for them. Since my adulthood, every dog and cat I have had/have were/are shelter rescues. What perverse greed and status clamoring delegates a few MILLION dogs and cats to die because they are not "fashionable" enough. Any fool can produce a labradoodle or a puggel. And, same fool can at least do one kind and responsible thing by getting the parents from a shelter, (or its equivalent).

 

[darkbloodwyvern]

dogs?

What perverse greed and status clamoring delegates a few MILLION dogs and cats to die because they are not "fashionable" enough. Any fool can produce a labradoodle or a puggel. And, same fool can at least do one kind and responsible thing by getting the parents from a shelter, (or its equivalent).

sigh i hate that stuff, puppy mills and all that. I think it's cool that there several snake breeders who take in rescues as pets. that to me is just a sign that someone loves the animsl. not the only sign, but it's a nice gesture anyhow. I don't know that this is the same problem, but it doesn't sit right either...

 

[Lucille]

Oh! The door has been opened. One comment about the new "designer dogs". Repeatedly I keep hearing them referred to as "hybrids". They are not. They are "mixed breeds". Many of these Puggels (pug/beagle), labradoodles etc are being sold in excess of $1000 per pup! And, people are actually paying that much for them! What burns my behind is that a few MILLION dogs and cats are euthanized in the US EVERY YEAR because there are no homes for them. Since my adulthood, every dog and cat I have had/have were/are shelter rescues. What perverse greed and status clamoring delegates a few MILLION dogs and cats to die because they are not "fashionable" enough. Any fool can produce a labradoodle or a puggel. And, same fool can at least do one kind and responsible thing by getting the parents from a shelter, (or its equivalent).

I am in favor of the Texas law that required animals that come from a shelter to be spayed/neutered. Doing that helps to keep down the population of homeless dogs and cats.
While the subject thread is about hybrids, it is more of a discussion of those who are intentionally selecting the parents.
Far too many dogs and cats are left homeless because the owners did not spay or neuter and the litter was unplanned. I think spaying/neutering is a good way to go for many pets; those who do not make this choice should in my opinion be responsible enough so that unplanned litters do not happen.

 

[darkbloodwyvern]

off topic ? sorry...

i agree with the Texas law. unless an animal is purebred, ther is no reason not to neauter or spay a pet-mutts are great, and seem to have fewer issues along the lines of inbreeding (something that a good breeder will always try to prevent) but we really don't need any more puppies and kitties, as cool and fun as they are. The county i live in is one of the highest in streilized cats and dogs because we used to have lots of unwanted pets, and vets began lowering their costs to help fix animals.
this is also a good reason to not get herps in pairs unless you are housing them separately or specifically breeding them. i have seen ads from adoption agencies about bearded dragons (or almost anything here) whose owners did not know about the prolific breeding habits of their new animals. While i feel bad for those who have this dillema, i would also mention that if they had reseached for a good couple of days and waited awhile before buying their pets, they would probably have the knowladge of how to prevent this. I am
just glad for sites like this where anyone who needs the info can find it or ask for it and get a reasonable answer to their questions.

So- i'm hoping the guy breeding these snakes knows that he may get nothing, or may have to cull some or all of the results, and i hope he is responsible enough to do so. I also hope he isn;t going to sell them at a ridiculous price, because honestly, anyone with one of each snake can do this kind of thing-that is what worries me.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

this is also a good reason to not get herps in pairs unless you are housing them separately or specifically breeding them. i have seen ads from adoption agencies about bearded dragons (or almost anything here) whose owners did not know about the prolific breeding habits of their new animals. While i feel bad for those who have this dillema, i would also mention that if they had reseached for a good couple of days and waited awhile before buying their pets, they would probably have the knowladge of how to prevent this.

I don't know where you're getting your information but most of the herps that are kept don't just pop out babies every few months like unaltered dogs & cats are capable of. It takes a lot more effort to breed most herps. There is no way in the world that someone unknowlingly had "prolific" bearded dragons and then had tons of babies without some help (i.e. incubation, etc.) from the owner. They don't just pop out like puppies & kitties do. If you don't want baby bearded dragons, pitch the eggs.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

I also hope he isn;t going to sell them at a ridiculous price, because honestly, anyone with one of each snake can do this kind of thing-that is what worries me.

I say more power to him if he can get someone to pay a ridiculously high price for one of the babies. It's really no one's business but the owner and the person buying the animal.

 

[darkbloodwyvern]

baerdeds

I don't know where you're getting your information but most of the herps that are kept don't just pop out babies every few months like unaltered dogs & cats are capable of. It takes a lot more effort to breed most herps. There is no way in the world that someone unknowlingly had "prolific" bearded dragons and then had tons of babies without some help (i.e. incubation, etc.) from the owner. They don't just pop out like puppies & kitties do. If you don't want baby bearded dragons, pitch the eggs.

i don't know why they didn't chuck the eggs, some ads were here about adopting accidental baby beardeds... i know snakes don't breed like mammals, however i think it is a good idea not to keep animals together unless you are willing to chuck the eggs and or deal with any stress caused by the arrangement etc.. not because you will sudden;y have a billion of them... that is what happens with stick insects.
as for the high price thing, i have no influence over what the guy does, I am just always hoping that breeders are caring for their animals as animals, not just money. I don't know the guy, and i'm sure he has good intentions etc, however I have worked at animals shelters for several years and see the results of people breeding/owning animals without this responsibility and doing irresponsible things with pets they can't get rid of. I am hoping that he shows this responsibility and i guess if he can get whatever someone will pay, good for him. Not all people who charge alot of money or scammers or dishonest, but they are out there. i was probably being too assuming in that last statement, since all the popular morphs basically turned out like that ... and i'm bathering so you don't have to read this....

 

[Lucille]

and i'm bathering

Get medical help real soon, like.....

 

[sschind]

i agree with the Texas law. unless an animal is purebred, ther is no reason not to neauter or spay a pet-mutts are great, and seem to have fewer issues along the lines of inbreeding (something that a good breeder will always try to prevent) but we really don't need any more puppies and kitties, as cool and fun as they are.

I'm not sure what the Texas law is but I am curious as to why you think it should apply to mutts only. Unless I am missing your intentention you seem to think it is OK to leave purebred animals intact but mutts should be fixed. A purebred can produce unwanted offspring just as easily as a mutt. Your comments also seems to indicate that you would disapprove of two mutts mating and producing offspring but not two purebred animals. Personally, I see little difference in purebred vs mixed breed dogs. If someone wants to breed a labrador and a poodle and charge $1000.00 for the babies, to me it is absolutely no different than someone wanting to breed two pure bred grand champion poodles (or labradors or any other breed for that matter) and charging $1000.00 for the babies. Its still way more than its worth to me.

As far as hybridizing reptiles (or fish as Paul brought up) my issue is not with the ethics of the crossing of species, but rather the potential for missidentification later. Not in the respect that I feel CB animals need to be kept pure for possible reintroduction into the wild if populations diminish but because, I as a keeper would prefer that my animals be of pure species. With more and more people becoming amature breeders it is very easy to see a time when hybrids are purchased without people knowing they are hybrids and these people produce babies that are not pure and pass them off as pure. I get it all the time with fish (mostly cichlids) people with community cichlid tanks with babies they want to sell. They can't be certain however if the male and female were of the same species and its something I am not interested in. I am not opposed to it, I am just not interested in it.

Steve

 

[Lucille]

I'm not sure what the Texas law is but I am curious as to why you think it should apply to mutts only.

The Texas law does not apply to mixed breeds only. I recently adopted a purebred English Bulldog fron a shelter, and it was neutered prior to leaving the shelter, pursuant to law.

This spay/neuter regulation for shelters helps reduce the population of unwanted animals in a way that seems fair to all concerned.

 

[Southwick Herps]

Shavemycoinpurse- Im not absolutely certain about genetic drift, I'd have to read the defenition again to be sure, and I don't feel like going and getting my bio book right now...
But is it when the general makeup of a population's gene poll changes and leads to adaption?

 

[crazydart]

My biggest beef is the fact that they are touting these animals as being "healthier" than purebreds, because they don't have the same genetics...well, HELLO......the puppies still carry the parents' genes. I fear they are opening a whole new can of worms with some of these breedings... the most popular of course being the "Goldendoodle" or "Labradoodle". Here, we are taking a Golden Retriever or Labrador Retriever, BOTH breeds prone to hip dysplasia, and crossing it with a Standard poodle, a breed nearly free of dysplastic dogs.

Maybe it wouldn't bother me QUITE as much if they would just sell the dogs as what they ARE, Mixed breeds, instead of giving them a fancy name and promoting them as a new breed, but that's the way to make the big bucks, I guess.....these people have no CLUE. And neither do most of the people buying them.

Now you do realize when you are taking about dogs and current dog species, you are talking about about animals that where hybrids hundreds and sometimes thousands of years ago, but through the years have been accepted as regular breeds. Do you really think a poodle of any sort if purebred?? Someone just found a population of poodles running around one day and stated keeping them as pets?! Thats funny. I think you need to look into that a little more. Did you know bull dogs were "created" to be mean and attack bulls, but they proved to have no pourpose and so through more selective breeding you have todays "pure bred" bull dog thats is gental and nice. All the chickens in the world also evolved from one bird species that really is not alot like a chicken. Several new species of chickens are created each year... how does this happen? They sure dont find them in the wild.

I am for attempting hybridization, but not for profit. If you can sell them to recoup costs, thats your business. I am very interested to see what is produced. This is a learning process. Taxonamy info changes all the time because we learn of hybrids, and sometimes we just learn more about the animals all togeather. How does anyone know these snakes are not compatible until you give it a go?!

Ethics is a whole other ball game. Different people hold to different ethics. I think the ethical thing to do here is breed them, if you produce offspring, breed them to each other and back to one of each species. Record the findings, put them on ice and more on. But thats just me.

Ben

 

[Karen Hulvey]

Now you do realize when you are taking about dogs and current dog species, you are talking about about animals that where hybrids hundreds and sometimes thousands of years ago, but through the years have been accepted as regular breeds.

Purebred dogs aren't hybrids. Mutts aren't hybrids. All dogs are Canis familiaris be it a sheep dog or a rat terrier. Breed a sheep dog to a rat terrier and you still have Canis familiaris, not a hybrid. So what are you talking about?