Illinois state law issues

[montezuma]

"I understand some of these concerns, but help me understand, exactly what is wrong with providing adequate housing and health requirements to the animals you breed? Why would any responsible pet owner or breeder mind that? Why would anyone want license to keep animals housed in unsanitary conditions, overcrowded boxes and tanks and then sell sick, emaciated animals?

Don't just read the words when it comes to law... you have to look and see what they are trying to achieve. Adequate housing for a Leopard Gecko is a sweater box but to law enforcement it could be a 10x10 room with a cave, a waterfall, a few cactus... who knows? Its to vague and open to interpretation.
These restrictive laws are Hitler-esque and need to be crushed, and the people who introduce them need to be removed from power.

 

[WebSlave]

I understand wanting to get a lot of traffic to view this thread, but isn't there a legislation forum somewhere on here?

Yeah, that's right. And this is another perfect example of my being placed in a "damned if I do, and damned if I don't" type of situation.

 

[Classic Dum's]

Rich I apoligize for not contacting you ahead of time. If you want to assses points or move the thread thats fare and no one else should either because I did violate the TOS with this thread. As fast as it came down I was trying to move as fast as I could. The best way I could think of to stop this was throwing a few posts in the heavily traveled forums and contacting the IL buisness that would be effected so I spent all day on the phone. IN any event Ive been unoffically informed that this has been pulled. The IL farmers union has a metting with the two officals who sponsored this on tuesday. So monday or tuesday it will be confirmed untill then to anyone reading this I was still send in letters and make phone calls to opose this and send them a message that this kind of bull will not be tolerated.

From what I am told the officals were aprocated by two people who had written this and asked to sponsor and push it. These two people gave them their sales pitch about how they would be saving animals and not infringing on rights etc etc The officals thought hey great and sponsored it now whether or not they didnt read it or understand it I have no idea but from what I am told they are rather embarressed to have been part of this and have dropped it. Like I said its not offical yet, this is all second and third hand info. However monday or tuesday we should be able to confirm this. To those who have taken the time THANK YOU to those who havnt please do. Because if this is actually being dropped and they continue to receive response oposing it they will think twice before ever getting involved again.

 

[Scott Nellis]

bill's sponser

To the two people who asked "Who is responsible for introducing this bill".....it's written right on the top of the bill......Representative Elaine Nekritz is responsible for the introduction of this bill to commitee. Did either of you guys actually read the bill? I swear, it has PETA's handwriting all over it!!! I think a few phone calls to her office are necessary.

Scott Nellis

 

[montezuma]

Sorry Scott, I missed it. Thanks for being such a great guy for pointing it out.

 

[Tripple H Herps]

I'd be very cautious of anyone selling animals that can't be confirmed healthy and raised in humane, and acceptable environments...

- I can easily confirm that without a vet inspection every single time I sell something. Again it boils down to the fact that this bill would be impractical to anyone that is sellling reptiles for a bussiness and not a hobby.

 

[Classic Dum's]

why would anyone be so enraged at an attempt to protect those who can't speak for themselves?

On this surface that may seem as though this is what its about but it is not by any means. First it is easier for them to rewrite a law then it is to make a new one. In every state in the US there are already animal cruelty laws on the books. So why not fix those? second you must understand the language. Under this law if you transfer one single animal in the state of IL you must be inspected and permitted prior to tranferring that animal. If you pick up a stray dog and give it to a friend under this you must be permitted. Your looking out for the benifit of that stray animal and you will get to give some of your hard earned money to the state and have state officals wondering around your house. Also understand this portion

Animal caretaker Pet shop operator" means any person who sells, offers to sell or , exchange, or offers for adoption with or without charge or donation dogs, cats, birds, fish, reptiles, or other animals customarily

obtained as pets in this State

.

No where in there does it says it is limited to IL residents.

means any person who sells, offers to sell or , exchange,...in this State

If you are coming in from out of state for the Tinley Park reptiles show next year you may be required to get inspected. Im going to use Bob Clark as an example, for no other reason then everyone has heard his name. Any person would include Bob Clark Shipping ball pythons into IL. Now does he send enough ball pythons here that its worth the hassle for him to jump through the hoops to do so legally under this law. I dunno. But keep in mind it clearly states ANY PERSON(which includes you), no where in there does it have any proposed way that someone from out of state can make the state of IL happy to legally tranfer animals into the state. The state of IL surly is not going to send agents to FL or CA to do inspections. The point I am getting at is this could shut the state lines down.


Now look at the wording for animal care taker

Animal caretaker " means any person who sells, offers to sell or , exchange, or offers for adoption with or without charge or donation dogs, cats, birds, fish, reptiles, or other animals customarily obtained as pets in this State.

Anyone who transfers reptiles is an animal caretaker and falls under the wording of this law Now notice what you must do with your reptiles under this law

Every animal caretaker pet shop operator, dog dealer, and cattery operator shall provide the following information for every dog or cat available for sale: (a) The age, sex, and weight of the animal. (b) The breed of the animal. (c) A record of vaccinations and veterinary care and treatment. (d) A record of surgical sterilization or lack of surgical sterilization. (e) The name and address of the breeder of the animal. (f) The name and address of any other person who owned or harbored the animal between its birth and the point of sale.
25 (Source: P.A. 87-819.)

26 (225 ILCS 605/18) (from Ch. 8, par. 318)
27 Sec. 18. The licensee shall:
28 a. Maintain sanitary conditions.
29 b. Insure proper ventilation.
30 c. Provide adequate nutrition.
31 d. Provide humane care and treatment of all animals under
32 his jurisdiction.
33 d-5. Provide a sufficient quantity of good quality,
34 wholesome food and water.

HB0707 - 5 - LRB094 04266 RAS 34291 b
1 d-10. Provide adequate shelter and protection from the
2 weather.
3 d-15. Provide veterinary care on an annual basis and also
4 when needed to prevent suffering.
5 d-20. Provide a stimulating and enriching environment.

Now if you look further into this law a "stimulating and enriching environment" is one that includes toys and all kinds of other nonsense that snakes simpy do not need. My dumerils may play with their food sometimes but they sure have no interest in balls, bells or anything else.

(f) The name and address of any other person who owned or harbored the animal between its birth and the point of sale.

Can you provide that for every single snake you own? Some maybe, but the majority no I cant. I dont know about you but I really dont think reptiles require yearly vet visits

Provide veterinary care on an annual basis and also when needed to prevent suffering.

I mean come on, I agree that when sick they need to be taken to a vet but yearly? They require no vaccinations or anything that needs to be checked and treated on a regualry schedule such as mammals.

Theres alot of other things in there too but just those should be enough to scare anyone. And lastly we dont know for certain that it was PETA members who wrote and brought this up to the officals. From what I am told it was two people who apraoched Elaine gave her a great sales pitch and she thought that this was going to save all the animal in the state of IL. But I have seen enough that I would bet money that PETA is somehow behind this. The vague language, direct wording etc etc just stinks of PETA or some other humaniacs.

Someone asked about who propsed this
Representative Elaine Nekritz (D)
http://www.ilga.gov/house/rep.asp?MemberID=1033
Springfield Office:
258-W Stratton Office Building
Springfield, IL 62706
(217) 558-1004
(217) 557-7204 FAX

District Office:
24 S. Des Plaines River Road
Suite 200
Des Plaines, IL 60016
(847) 257-0450
(847) 257-0452 FAX
Cook County


Representative Paul D. Froehlich (R)
http://www.ilga.gov/house/rep.asp?MemberID=1068
Springfield Office:
232-N Stratton Building
Springfield, IL 62706
(217) 782-3725
(217) 782-1336 FAX

District Office:
15 W. Weathersfield Way
Schaumburg, IL 60193
(847) 985-9210
(847) 891-8772 FAX
Cook County

Full text can be veiwed here
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ful...um=0707&GAID=8&LegID=15187&SpecSess=&Session=

 

[montezuma]

You seem to be jumping the gun here. Has anyone defined sweater boxes as improper housing quarter yet?

Wanda, this leaves it up to individual interprepation. If a speed limit sign just said drive at a safe speed, what speed would you drive? A 90 year old may say 15 mph and an 18 year old might say 100mph....

 

[geckosunlimited]

This is another glaring example of arbitrary regulation. They have absolutely no clue about proper care and handling of pets. There is always an agenda, and I know that PETA is involved and/or HSUS. How can these folks even begin to be objective with the constant pressure of these extremist groups? I sure hope the U.S. doesn't follow Norway's example.

 

[Tripple H Herps]

I sure hope the U.S. doesn't follow Norway's example.

-It's funny. Norway is a "welfare state" meaning that they give there people almost everything. Right down to money for there honey moon. Infact it was a place I was considering at one point.... However I came across the beutifule ban on reptiles and exotics they have. Not to mention the fact that becoming a citizen is near impossible. I guess the reason they give you so much crap, is to provide you a reason to actually stay there....lol From what I have heard, the ban on reptiles up there has only caused much much more problems then good. People are illegally keeping them and more are being released to die, more are being abused becouse they cant show them to anyone, and more of these owners are becoming very irresponsible. Something like that would be horrible for the animals, expecially in a place so "reptile & exotic" filled. Just imagine what it would do to so many people in FL alone. Now put in to reason the thousands of burms people would release so they don't get a fine......
Jim

 

[geckosunlimited]

"From what I have heard, the ban on reptiles up there has only caused much much more problems then good. People are illegally keeping them and more are being released to die"

My point exactly!

 

[montezuma]

I am not a PETA supporter, but I am a firm believer of animal rights.

So what you are saying is you agree with people who would rather put animal rights before human rights?

Norway is a "welfare state" meaning that they give there people almost everything. Right down to money for there honey moon. Infact it was a place I was considering at one point....

I just don't understand people who enterain ideals such as this. This is called SOCIALISM, you don't have a choice in what you do, how much you make, what kind of pets you can have, whether you can own a gun or not, and no choosing between Folgers or Hills Bros... I find that the only thing keeping you from desiring to live their just sickening and competely against the reason this is the US.

 

[Tripple H Herps]

I just don't understand people who enterain ideals such as this. This is called SOCIALISM, you don't have a choice in what you do, how much you make, what kind of pets you can have, whether you can own a gun or not, and no choosing between Folgers or Hills Bros... I find that the only thing keeping you from desiring to live their just sickening and competely against the reason this is the US.

-Okay that post really disturbed me. Are you aware that comunism/socialism has been completly out of western Europe for almost 16 years?????? I would never move to a comunist country. I am still living here arn't I? Did you know Great Britan is also a welfare state?....hmmm I think you should work on your history.

 

[Tripple H Herps]

I am still living here arn't I?

- sorry I didn't mean to contradict myself if that’s what it sounded like. I meant I am proud to live in this country, that’s why I am still here. However, yes there was a time in my life that I was looking at different places. To be honest I would still look today if a great job opportunity popped up in a (democratic or republic nation). Government supported health care is almost in every industrialized nation. Take Canada for example. Are you going to tell me they are socialist as well?

 

[reptilebreeder]

You seem to be jumping the gun here. Has anyone defined sweater boxes as improper housing quarter yet? Now, even I oppose keeping animals stored away as mere breeding stock in unsanitary, and inhumane conditions. That being either a sweater box or a 10 gallon tank.

Can you clarify that? You state in one sentence "unsanitary and inhumane", then next sentence state "that being either a sweater box or a 10 g. tank" so are you stating that if the sweater box or 10 g. tank is unsanitary, or that you consider a sweater box or 10 g. tank inhumane?

 

[montezuma]

This all is a bit off subject but I feel it needs to be addressed to provide understanding as to how all of this bill is absolutely wrong for those of you that don't see the harm in it!
I don't know how these liberal whack-jobs have managed to pass off the ideal that government control over everything is not socialism but it's quite unfortunate that alot of people are buying it. Socialism is alive all over Europe, it is impossible to deny it. Here is a definition of Socialism so you may understand:

a system of collective or government ownership and management of the means of production and distribution of goods. Because of the collective nature of socialism, it is to be contrasted to the doctrine of the sanctity of private property that characterizes capitalism.[\QUOTE]
Wow, kinda sounds like Canada's Healthcare system along with France, Spain and Germany! Are you aware that the richer people in Canada do not utilize the welfare healthcare system since it is a lousy failure?
Government control over our lives whether it be healthcare or Reptile care will push us further and further towards control over our lives...

 

[montezuma]

I forgot to add that the definition came from Yahoo Encyclopedia....

Gotta give props where they are due!

 

[Tripple H Herps]

As I beleive, Europeans are allowed to sell there products and items by themselves without goverment controll. So how is that a complete controll of goverment? I think the main thing that brings us into this argument is are two political veiws. I do not like to express mine (online and in my bussiness name: "Tripple H Herps") simply becouse I have found that threw bussiness it is not always a good idea. Regardless of your oppinion. Even if the majority of people agree with you, the minority might find reason not to purchase from you. I personally beleive in a free health care system. You just said it yourself, the WELTHIEST of people don't go by it. Do you realize how many people in the US can not afford the luxury of a hospital if they are sick? Let alone the payments for health care? The govt up there does not have complete controll of the system, so it would not be socialist. They DO have private companys offering this service to the "richer" people. Yes this has gotten off the topic. How about we just quit nagging at each other via this forum and call it a draw...lol

 

[artfan1]

back on point...

Hopefully by now, we can all agree that nobody, not even the group here, can clearly interpret the bill. That's why some see it as ok and other's don't.
That's what scares me most. And it's not anybody's fault. The proposed bill is purposely, (I feel) written to be vague. That makes it easier for the bill supporters to reach, whatever their hidden agenda is.

One thing that is consistent is that the veterinarians will make out well. Getting a prescription on bird seed???!!! Are you kidding me?

My Dad is a vet, and I can't see him agreeing with this. If the writer of this bill is not a member of PETA, then I bet she is the wife or relative of a veterinarian. She even goes so far as to immune vets from this law. I know of a lot of vets that breed and sell reptiles, dogs, birds, etcs. This law will violate the fair market laws as well. A vet could provide all the required papers, tests, whatever, and have a corner on the market. Why do they put that clause in this bill?

Imagine, I have 50 baby bearded dragons that I plan to take to the show, so I bring them in to my vet for a health exam. I sell 10. (If I am lucky, because the guy next to me can sell them for 1/2 the price because he lives in an other state or chooses not to obey the law).
So the next show I have to again, take the remaining 40 back for an exam. By the time I get down to the last few baby dragons, how much do you think I would have to sell them for to even break even?

Here's were things go South.
The good guys, who are jumping through all the hoops go out of business because of obvious economics.

Basically, the good guys will continue to be good guys, or become the new "bad guy" and the bad guys will just keep doing what they are doing.

Instead of wasting everyone's time on new laws. They need to fix the old ones.

I don't mind being inspected and or liscensed, just as long as there are guidelines that I know are required. Just like restaurants with health codes.

But imagine if every time a restaurant, sold a steak dinner, the health code inspector had to be called in, to inspect that steak. The inspectors would get rich, that is until all the restaurants went out of business.

Just my thoughts.
Troy Dozier

 

[artfan1]

"This just in"...

Nothing to conferm this yet, but I just got word from Lee Watson of Lee Watson's Reptile Show in the Chicago area.
He tells me that the bill has been withdrawn.

He goes on to say, "We have already handled this".

Don't know what they did but I am very thankful.

Troy Dozier