Humans Killed by Dogs in Alabama 2024 vs. Snake Caused Deaths

[Martin Nowak]

Alabama has prohibited the keeping of non-native venomous reptiles since 2020. The reason given is: “… human health and safety concerns related to potential impacts of nonnative animals in Alabama, effective October 15, 2020, …”.

https://www.outdooralabama.com/restricted-possession-permit

Native venomous reptiles are allowed to be kept by anyone. Venomous reptile keeping is generally by two groups: certain religious adherents and of course reptile keepers.

https://www.amazon.com/Salvation-Sand-Mountain-Redemption-Appalachia/dp/0306818361

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_on_Sand_Mountain

https://www.hbo.com/movies/alabama-snake

https://www.gadsdentimes.com/story/...hers-case-subject-hbo-documentary/6255264002/

I have commented several times in this Forum concerning Alabama’s position on captive maintenance and breeding of venomous reptiles. The regulation is without factual foundation and based on sensational statements and erroneous beliefs. The Alabama Hospital Association is against keeping of venomous reptiles indicating the high cost of treatment. This association of course avoids all other animal-human injury and death - focusing only on snakes.

As noted in my March 11, 2024, FC post titled “Circumstances of Snakebite Envenomation”, virtually all – note virtually all – venomous snakebites occur to non-reptile keepers while conducting routine outdoor activity or conducting stupid activity when finding a venomous snake.

https://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/threads/circumstances-of-snakebite-envenomation.828721/

To the point of this post, sadly yet another human being was killed by dogs in Alabama on July 11, 2024. Several children have been killed by dogs in Alabama in in the first six months of 2024. No humans and no children have been killed by snakes in recent years.

https://www.al.com/news/huntsville/...-by-dog-in-north-alabama-authorities-say.html

https://www.al.com/news/2024/02/4-year-old-killed-in-alabama-dog-attack-touched-so-many-lives.html

https://www.al.com/news/2024/07/alabama-man-kills-his-dog-after-it-fatally-attacked-his-wife.html

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/06/04/town-creek-alabama-dog-attack/73969836007/

In contrast again, no person has been killed by a venomous snake / reptile in Alabama in many years. More humans and children have been killed in Alabama by dogs in 7 months to date than in the prior 20 years by snakes.

In addition, multiple humans have been killed by domestic animals (cattle and horses), bees, and driving accidents hitting deer. Deer are native, but cattle, horses, and honey bees are non-native. This again represents the oxymoronic approach to limiting reptile keepers from enjoying their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

Non-fatal dog attacks on humans in Alabama in 2024 (this an example, many more are available).

https://www.wvtm13.com/article/jeff...-birmingham-humane-society-robinwood/46079251

Closely related are the national data on venomous snakebite which I provided in FC Forum June 25, 2023, titled “Snakebite Deaths from Non-Native Venomous Snakes 2013 – 2022”.

https://www.faunaclassifieds.com/fo...-non-native-venomous-snakes-2013-2022.815307/

These data are from the university consortium North American Snakebite Registry. The report has not been updated since 2022. However, it remains that during the 10-year report period, only 19 non-native venomous bites were treated in the U.S. and there were zero (0) fatalities. Considering the number of venomous reptiles in captivity, 19 is a like a “rounding error” in accounting or the term “non-material” to the numbers.

https://www.acmt.net/nasbr/#

The reptile industry continues to be under great pressure and regulatory assault which is considerably out of proportion to other human injury and deaths by non-reptile fauna. Reptile keepers need to be aware of facts, spurious comparisons, and totally false statements to counter and defend the hobby. It is important to be able to counter anti-snake assertions with science and citations.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

I did a Google image search on 'child attacked by dog' once. Never again.

Martin, any idea why non-native and native venomous species are treated differently? It seems that the "human health and safety concerns" from venomous animals would not depend on whether they're native to the state per se. Indeed, it might be the opposite: anyone could easily pick up a native animal and bring it home and stick it in a tank, but to purchase an animal can take a little more thought and effort, and it seems that the venomous community makes at least some effort to keep animals out of the hands of people they don't belong in.

 

[Martin Nowak]

There are Alabama cultural issues at play in this. "The only good snake is a dead snake". Dare I mention culture about anything that is foreign?

There are Alabama governmental totalitarian issues at play. The Alabama game and fish commission (ADCNR) takes the position it is in charge of all non-domestic animals. (Hence I continue to strongly advocate that the hobby must change the designation of reptiles into domesticated animals and in part agricultural animals. e.g. crocodilians for leather and meat. Etc.). Back to the ADCNR - it has recently taken the position that it does not take revenue from reptile keepers which in its estimation it rightly deserves. No matter that the ADCNR takes no revenue from pet store animals and products, no revenue from agriculture animals, no revenue from zoos, no revenue from alpaca / emu / savannah cats, no revenue from koi distributers urban fountains, and so forth. It views reptile keepers as rich hobbyists who do not pay taxes or often do not obtain business licenses. To be sure - they do watch FC and MM and FB and LLCs and Incs in the reptile hobby ... and see the prices of many of the animals. They also keep track of people caught / convicted of reptile trafficking. In my opinion, as with every discipline, if an industry does not peer review and self police, a governmental agency will step in to do so. Negatively affecting the rest of us.

More specific, in July of 2001 a guy in Moody Alabama "lost" an "African black spitting cobra". Rumor has it he kept it in a small aquarium with a cardboard top and a brick. He was not what most of us would describe as a conscientious reptile keeper. He did not attempt to breed snakes but simply kept several non-native venomous. This event became really big news in Alabama and even more so locally. I will provide some links at the end of this narrative. Complaints about this situation reached the governor's office who then charged the ADCNR to rectify the situation. It was a lead in to just what the ADCNR wanted anyway.

To your question / comment. And this is my opinion, the catching and keeping of native venomous means that more of these "bad snakes" are out of the wild and therefore cannot bite turkey hunters and children. And besides the logic goes, only nut cases would keep such animals. The issue of non-native animals was also growing in the U.S. and Burmese pythons in the Everglades were also in the news. The university advisors to ADCNR are opposed to reptile keepers and the private keeping of reptiles. So there is that influence as well. But I do not know with detail the reasons why the allowance of keeping native venomous and the prohibition of keeping non-native venomous. As their precaution, the law even indicates that even if a non-native reptile became established in Alabama, it would remain classified as non-native.

One aspect of the question I think is actually quite reasonable - if Alabamians are allowed to keep non-native venomous snakes - who is responsible for the cost and transport of antivenom? Most of the hospitals in Alabama have on hand or close by, ample amounts of CroFab for native venomous. Should non-native venomous keepers be required to have proof of health insurance? About 50 years ago a "famous" and well experienced snake keeper's son in Alabama was bitten on the shoulder by a cobra. He indeed became quite ill and nearly succumbed to the bite. Species specific antivenom was found via the national poison control registry and the National Guard flew a jet to retrieve it and get it to the local hospital. Who should pay for that kind of event? I really don't want to share in the pooled costs and health insurance premiums for people who willfully cause problems (e.g. smoking, helmetless motorcycle, DUI, etc. And I know this is a complex topic as well - so at least allow me to note the principle). So the Alabama Hospital Association and physicians do not want the cost and liability of "absence of species specific antivenom".

It is worth understanding the Alabama game and fish commission (ADCNR) view of their totalitarian world. An example is best. Just a very few years ago it was deemed both "illegal and unethical" to bait for deer when hunting. Of course baiting deer and other game animals is common practice in most states. I will not get into discussion here about pro and con hunting, baiting, and so forth - but to be transparent, I hunt and fish and enjoy both outdoor activities. Back to baiting for deer in Alabama. Then the ADCNR had an epiphany and figured out they could charge a fee to allow baiting for deer. Suddenly, what was unethical became ethical upon payment of a fee to bait deer during hunting. It is even termed "Bait Privilege License". A remarkable term. https://www.outdooralabama.com/sites/default/files/Licenses/Recreational - Current/Baiting_Privilege_Packet.pdf

Back to the cobra, you will hear and see statements in the links like:
"what if it cross breeds with an Alabama snake?"
"what if it has babies and then we have cobras like Florida has pythons?"
"somebody ought to do something about these crazy snake people?"
"snakes are the devil's work and God wants them all dead"
"spitting cobras spit in your eye at 15 feet, blind you, then they crawl over and bite you to kill you"
"the cobra bite kills you instantly"

.

COLUMN: Snakes hiss me off - The Cullman Tribune

COLUMN: Snakes hiss me off - The Cullman Tribune - Featured

www.cullmantribune.com

Cobra Update

www.mail-archive.com

Cobra? Vipers? In Alabama?

SpecialThis is a monocled cobra ... and we DO NOT need these in Alabama. I am beginning to lose the ability of shock and surprise when I hear about someone in Alabama doing something crazy. The latest case is about...

www.al.com

I hope this sheds some light on your question. Much about reptile statutes and regulations in Alabama are totally illogical.

 

[bcr229]

Martin, any idea why non-native and native venomous species are treated differently? It seems that the "human health and safety concerns" from venomous animals would not depend on whether they're native to the state per se. Indeed, it might be the opposite: anyone could easily pick up a native animal and bring it home and stick it in a tank, but to purchase an animal can take a little more thought and effort, and it seems that the venomous community makes at least some effort to keep animals out of the hands of people they don't belong in.

In WV you can keep all of the non-native venomous snakes you want, but no native snake species period due to DNR regulations. Since corn snakes are native to WV they are illegal to keep as pets.

From a public health perspective I thought hospitals either kept or could readily obtain antivenom for native venomous critters but not non-native, hence the push to prohibit the non-native venomous species as a public health risk.

 

[Martin Nowak]

bcr229 - My paragraph above explains your point - you are correct. CroFab is readily available at most hospitals of reasonable size. There are no firm rules in this. CroFab is quite expensive and small hospitals do not usually stock it and it does have a lengthy shelf life. However, since most people are within reasonable distance to a hospital stocking CroFab - it is reasonable to think one can get to treatment in plenty of time. In more rural areas one might rely on medical helicopter transportation as well.
And as noted, I do think state / game and fish commission culture has a lot to do with reptile regulations. Ignorance also plays a role.
But the bottom line is: few reptile keepers are bitten, very very few die, and there have been no deaths from exotic envenomation by the miniscule number (19) such bites in the last 10 years. So the governmental reasoning using bites, deaths, and costs to society for bites incurred by snake keepers is overblown, incorrect, and sensationalized.

CroFab shelf life = 60 months

How to Order CroFab | Where to Buy Antivenom | CroFab.com

Review a list of authorized distributors and suppliers to order CroFab (crotalidae polyvalent immune fab [ovine]) for your organization.

crofab.com

 

[Socratic Monologue]

I can't quite come up with good reasoning to support the fact that this regulation (restricting non-native venomous on the basis of public health) is a part of "Alabama Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries" regulations, since it isn't a fisheries or Alabama wildlife issue.

The legislative text (220-2-.26) was written by the Natural Resources Commissioner. Seems like this should have originated with the state health department if it is a public health issue.

 

[Martin Nowak]

You are too logical for the Alabama swamp in Montgomery !

Unlike other states - the Commissioner of Public Health in Alabama is appointed by the State Medical Society. The State Medical Society meets rarely, selects an MD to be Commissioner, the governor approves the selection, and the Commissioner is never evaluated on job performance. (All other commissioners in Alabama are directly appointed by the governor - e.g. transportation, mental health, game and fish (ADCNR), etc.)
Three entities in Alabama would logically have some bearing on public health: Public Health (ADPH), Environmental Management (ADEM), and game and fish (ADCNR). Sometimes, even the Alabama Department of Agriculture might have a role (e.g. in a hog sludge pit leak into waterways). In every case of pollution, environmental disaster, pandemic, etc. they will each refer citizens to the other department. And the power company and universities have a strong role in public health as well; obviously biased to their missions and less to the actual health of the public. Alabama has ranked in the bottom 5 of all states in public health for at least 50 years. Snake bite envenomation is not even a public health topic. The control of snake bite and snakes is under the purview of the game and fish commission. Why? Well, turkey hunters might get bitten. Foreign snakes might multiply like they did in the Everglades. There is no way to tax and set fees over reptiles to the benefit of the ADCNR. Etc.

In short - the Alabama Department of Public Health confines itself to traditional health issues such as infant vaccinations, communicable diseases, parasitic infections, morbidity and mortality from several sources, and so forth. With all the fine coordination by these "health departments" Alabama has the 4th highest maternal mortality rate among the states.

A central point of intrusive governmental oversight is that it can generally ignore issues (e.g. public health) or it can outlaw any potential issues it does not wish to manage, does not understand, can't tax, and so forth (e.g. keeping snakes especially venomous snakes). Therefore, Alabama ADCNR has chosen to outlaw keeping of many snake species.

This discussion could go on for pages.

Alabama Department of Public Health Commissioner Appointment

ADPH - About Us

Alabama Public Health Ranking by State

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/alabama

Explore Overall in Alabama | AHR

State-by-state study of our nation’s health. See the strengths, challenges, and overall rank of each state, based on key health measures.

www.americashealthrankings.org

Maternal and Infant Mortality Rates by State

Which states have the highest maternal mortality rates?

Mississippi had the highest maternal mortality rate in 2021.

usafacts.org

 

[Socratic Monologue]

You are too logical for the Alabama swamp in Montgomery !

"Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired" -- Jonathan Swift

 

[Martin Nowak]

World Snake Day and Alabama Department of Public Health (ADPH)

A remarkable post by the Alabama Department of Public Health – remarkable in the nonsense it spews for the public. This post was sent all over Alabama via their subscribers and the Nextdoor social network.

July 16 is World Snake Day

Reference my FC post Sunday 7/14/2024 and the discussion.

The Alabama Department of Public Health post:

Uses the terms “Non-Poisonous” and “Poisonous”. This from the supposedly science and medical based Department of Public Health.

Under “Alabama Snakes” – most “Non-Poisonous” snakes are not listed although it does provide a link further down for all the snakes in Alabama. The link for more information here is to the Alabama Game and Fish Commission (ADCNR) site. This is a good site for the public and uses the terms “Venomous” and “Non-Venomous”.

Snakes | Outdoor Alabama

Official Web Site of Alabama Department of Conservation and Natural Resources

www.outdooralabama.com

The identification link to Children’s of Alabama Poison Information Center is a good source of information for the public. And – it uses the term “Venomous”.

Venomous Snakes

Initial First Aid for Snake bites No Tourniquet No Ice No Cutting Remove Rings & Constrictive Items Immobilize Extremity Keep Patient Calm & Warm Transport to Emergency Deptartment ASAP Call the Poison Center at 1-800-222-1222. The poison specialist can determine if further treatment is needed...

www.childrensal.org

None of the three official links indicate the rarity of the Eastern coral snake in Alabama. Data indicates six (6) or fewer sightings of this species per year. Better informing the public would be useful so they don’t wantonly kill scarlet, scarlet king, and corn snakes.

Eastern Coral Snake – Alabama Herpetological Society

alabamaherpsociety.com

Back to the ADPH Snake Day post. It is good the ADPH indicates that “Snakes Can Be Good Neighbors” and notes a few reasons. One reason given is that snakes eat rodents which carry ticks, and the ticks may carry Lyme disease. While this is likely true, Lyme disease is one of the rarest conditions in Alabama. This is stated in another ADPH link:

Lyme Disease | Alabama Department of Public Health (ADPH)

This page provides information on Lyme disease.

www.alabamapublichealth.gov

In 2019 there were 66 reported cases of Lyme disease: among a population >4.9 million.

Tick-borne illness on the rise in Alabama: What to know as summer arrives

Between 2000 and 2018, the number of tick-borne illnesses exploded in Alabama. Lyme disease remains rare, but spotted fever rickettsiosis has sickened hundreds in Alabama.

www.al.com

The ADPH in its recommendations on “Keep Snakes Away” recommends “Use natural repellents like sulfur, vinegar, and garlic and onions.” I have a fairly large garden of garlic and onions and every year find king snakes and copperheads crawling about in the plantings. I am unable to find credible research papers indicating vinegar and Sulphur repel snakes. Readers ? (credible research?)

Is Vinegar A Snake Repellent?

Discover the surprising truth about vinegar as a snake repellent. Find out how this common household item can keep snakes away from your home.

mynatureguard.com

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1431&context=gpwdcwp

When I was in undergraduate biology at UA we tested Sulphur and / or naphthalene containing commercial products in the lab. Did not deter any of the several venomous and non-venomous snakes. They simply crawled right over both substances. Every time.

BUT, the Alabama Department of Public Health indicates to use these substances to repel snakes !

The Johns Hopkins Medicine site link on “What to Do if You Get Bitten” is a good site and uses proper terminology. Perhaps the only part I might quibble with is if a person envenomated delays getting to a hospital by washing with soap and finding a cool compress, such delay might cause some additional reactions. During my time driving an ambulance and working in an ER, clearly removing rings, watches, bracelets was very important. Second, marking the progression of swelling with a line and time was most helpful to determine severity of the envenomation.
The National Capital Poison Center link is also a good source of information for the public.

>> Socratic and bcr229 – you can see how well these “public health” divisions of Alabama state government work together. You can see how scientific the Alabama Department of Public is in their viral post to citizens. It’s “Snake Day” !