Diets for bearded dragons

[CheriS]

I am starting this thread not to start debates on some peoples beaded dragons recommeneded diets that they advocate,(sooooooo please, don't start quoting and ripping them) but to hear what others feed their dragons that have reached adulthood with no problems.

I also wanted to ask if anyone knows what plants they live on in the wild successfully, any websites to that information or stiudies in the wild and others input on the high oxalates foods that are often recommended as greens and vegetables for them in the United States and Europe.

Everything I have been studing, talking to nutritionist and viewing pathology on deceased dragons seem to indicate that many of the plant food sources we have been giving them are contrary to their needs and ability to process, if not outright deadly to some.

Can we hear some ideas?

 

[ChadOsborne]

oxalates foods

Maybe it's late but what are they????????

 

[CheriS]

Oxalic acids are found in many plant foods, they bind with calcium and other nutrients to form salts called oxalates. In large quanities can be very dangerous, even fatal. Over long time use can cause renal failure and liver disease in reptiles.

Here let me add a URL that can explain it and show some of the foods Oxalates and oxalic acids

 

[hanoverherps]

Varieties...

Hi!
Our dragons eat a huge variety of feeders and vegetables. As for feeders...

crickets, superworms, occasional wax worms, mealworms, occasional pinkies and hoppers, etc...

As for vegetables, we feed a huge assortment of vegetables. We feed them organic blends, some of which are pre-packaged fresh, and fresh from the shelf/ground. The pre-packaged ones are such as.....organic fresh spring mix, organic baby blends, Asian mixes, and so forth. We also give them kale, collard greens, mustard greens, red headed lettuce, green headed lettuce, fresh parsley, fresh sprouts, broccoli salad, carrot greens, radish greens, dandelion greens, raddicio, and so on.

It's hard to list them all, as I said before, we feed a huge variety. I'm sure I've probably missed some but you get the idea. None of these foods are fed on a regular basis as it is such a variety I don't think they get too much of anything. Some items are fed a bit more than others, with nutrition in mind. The food listed are fed to all of our dragons according to size, age, health and nutritional needs, and other variables.

Bob

 

[CheriS]

Thanks for that info, I like some of the pre-packaged ones also, some use to be sealed with perservative to keep them fresh, but most now are guaranteed not to have any in them. I think the brand I use is called Fresh Express and I use the Spring mix and baby organics blends, have not seen an asian blend but that sounds good as so many of the really good greens for them are chinese greens.

I think I am about to give up on trying to find the perfect foods... they don't exist, I swear, if one type of green or veggie has so many great nutrients in them for beardies, it seems to have one that is not that good or dangerous. Trying to balance oxalates, Calcium/PH and other minerals is next to impossible in one food source, adding a bit of them all I think is probably the best way also.

 

[BrianB]

We use a base of collard, turnip, dandelion, or mustard greens, in that order of preference, and sometimes in combination, depending on availability. The collards are great, because the tougher leaves keep well in a warm enclosure, and they're high in calcium. All but the dandelion are available in pre-cut, ready-to-eat bags at the grocery store, which is a HUGE time-saver.

In addition, we add in some yellow squash, shredded carrot, cilantro (rarely, it makes for smelly poo), zucchini, bell peppers, alfalfa or bean sprouts, and a few other things, depending on availability. The bulk of the salad remains the leafy greens, though.

We offer fresh fruit a couple of times a month. Partly because fruit is high in sugar, and partly because none of our dragons has much of a sweet tooth. Fruit choices include kiwi, mango, grapes, apples, and whatever else is available.

In the fresh veggies/fruit department, we avoid anything that's highly acidic, such as tomatoes or citrus fruit, and anything that's high in oxaclic acids, such as spinach.

Babies get fresh crix of the appropriate size daily, once or twice a day depending on size. We've had really good salad eaters out of our last two batches of babies, and past the six week mark, I put them on crix once a day, with as much salad as they like the rest of the day. Growth is slower this way, but the dragons maintain good weight for their size and slow growth may help prevent complications such as fatty liver disease and gout down the line.

Dragons past the baby stage get bugs about three times a week. For larger dragons, we feed supers due to the ease of care. Our adults eat so little live prey that what it is doesn't matter much, and adult supers have better Cah ratio than adult crickets.

After laying a clutch of eggs, our large female gets a serving of peach fuzzy mice once a week, dusted with calcium. She's a large girl, and can handle the fuzzies. We feel these are better than pinks b/c pinks' bones aren't fully calcified. I wouldn't recommend them for smallish females under 18" though.

For artificial food, we use some Rep Cal pellets, but usually only as a supplemental item to the salad and bugs.

Lately, we've cut WAY back on the bugs, to a serving about once a week, for the adults, and they are all doing great on salad with pellets mixed in for the bulk of their diet.

 

[CheriS]

We hardly ever can find dandelion greens here, only time I have foudn them was in a health food store and it was almost $5 for a small bunch of them. Do you happen to know or have the name of the company that has the pre made packs? If I could get it I would appreciate it and maybe can get one of our local store to stock it from them.

Your outline of food for all the ages are pretty close to mine also, except for the fuzzies, just my personal hangup (we also raise russian dwarf hamsters for pets and resell as pets) I know its a fact of the food chain, just I can not bring myself to do it....... weak woman ya know

 

[BrianB]

Cheri, I know what you mean. I personally hate feeding out rats, b/c they're so personable, but I buy frozen at least. (That's for my boa, not the dragons, btw =)

The dandelions aren't available pre-packaged, but we get them in Raley's/Bel Air (CA chain, I think) and Ralph's (ditto) for about 1.19 a bunch. Heck, you're in FL, should be able to cultivate some in your backyard pretty easily. =)

The site for the greens company was on the bag: www.cutncleangreens.com

 

[eyespy]

RE: nutrition and oxalates

My oldest dragon is only 2 1/2 so I'm speaking from observations I've made as a surgical tech and thoughts from some of my vet friends here.

I've never seen a bearded dragon with kidney stones that didn't have some underlying disease process. Most times problems were traced to visceral gout or long-term dehydration. Untreated parasites were often cited as the most likely reason for the dehydration cases.

The vast majority, I'd say well over 95%, of animals I've seen with other types of kidney disease were animals fed a high amount of animal protein in their diets. Beardies who are fed a large variety of salad items in my experience are far less likely to develop kidney problems than animals fed mostly prey items as adults. Animals fed high oxalate items such as dark leafy greens tend to do better at avoiding kidney disease than animals fed lettuces or a vegetable mix rather than the more nutritious dark greens.

My humble opinion is that bugs are a bigger "risk" than oxalates. The most important thing is to vary the diet so no one item makes up too big a percentage of overall food intake.

Also, I took 2 courses with Susan Donoghue, a respected reptile nutritionist and at that time (mid-80s) it was her belief that oxalates tend to bind calcium and other minerals within that particular food item but do not tend to rob the body of minerals found in other foods, even when consumed at the same time.

My dad has recurrent kidney stones and his nutritionist says the same basic thing. He is told to avoid spinach and other oxalate-containing items which are also high in minerals that bind to oxalates. Foods with oxalates that are low in minerals are not such a problem, as long as he doesn't eat high mineral foods at the same time. He can eat them an hour later, though.

The nutritionist encourages people to eat things like spinach. She says these foods do not cause kidney disease in healthy people, they just aggravate an underlying condition. She feels my father has kidney disease because he was a binge drinker in his youth and a heavy coffee drinker now so he has probably been dehydrated for many years.

 

[builtboy16@aol]

I usually fed mine tomatoes,turnip greens,grapes,sometimes fruit babyfood,mealworms,crickets, and yea theres alot more you could feed them.

 

[Denisebme]

Ok. For us, salads normally consist of collard, mustard, turnip and dandelion greens in some combination. We also add in any of the following, depending on the day and the whim of the salad maker.
Grated butternut squash, bell pepper, sweet pea, cactus pads, Italian squash, rose petals.
From the garden we sometimes add ,mint, cilantro, basil, rosemary, squash flowers.
For treats, strawberries, blackberries, raspberries, mango, papaya, or kiwi.
We occasionally add soaked repcal pellets.

For adults, we offer crickets or another feeder insect every other day instead of daily UNLESS they are gravid.

 

[Valley Dragons]

All or our dragons eat a daily staple salad of turnip greens, mustard greens, collards (not as much of the collards, the dragons don't seem to like them), and shredded acorn, butternut, or yellow squash.

We throw in a couple veggies, usually green peppers, green beans, peas, cucumber, or lima beans.

We give fruit once or twice a week - cherries, mandarin oranges, apples, grapes, or blueberries.

We mix Repcal pellets into the salad every other day.

Our adults are fed crickets or discoids twice a week.

Our gravid females are fed crickets or roaches 5 days per week. Once a week they get a special supplement containing turkey baby food, squash baby food, acidophilus, calcium, and vitamins. I usually feed them 4 tsp. of this mixture. They go crazy for that stuff - it works great for underweight or sick dragons as well.

Our babies and juvies eat crickets daily.

I have used MinerAll supplements, RepCal supplements, and T-Rex Dragon Dust supplements. I have had the best luck with the Dragon Dust, and will continue to use this. I use it daily on their salad.


Jamie

 

[Playnwifsnot]

My guy and gals get mustard greens,collard greens,turnip greens and newmans spring mix,I like this brand of organic better than the ones that come in the boxes. Occasionlly I will find dandilion greens at the store, thankfully unlike Cheri's store, they tend to sell them for $2-$3 a bunch. I also offer butternut squash and yams/sweet potatoes. I personally dont offer fruit to my crew, they happily eat everything else for me.

As far as insects go, its an equal mix of both crickets and superworms. I tend to mix it up, one time it will be crickets, another it will be superworms and occasionlly when I can get friends in on it, we will order silkworms as a treat.

I am with Cheri on the fuzzy thing, just not something I can do. Funny part is I brought home an ATB and he eats mice....lol I only have him till I can find him a new home!

~Melissa