Anyone else get these ??? Please read.

[herpetological]

I posted sometime ago in regards to people who cannot stand up to their convictions...people who e-mail dealers with nasty, rude or otherwise discourteous messages. Most of them have false e-mails or they simply do not answer back. Examples; I was in a hurry to take a pic of a Chameleon.. it was dark, the chameleon was just awakened and taken inside so of course it was stressing. Plus I had a lousy camera and lousy lighting. It wasn't long before someone e-mailed me with a nasty message saying that the chameleon was the worst he'd ever seen and what kind of person he thought I was.(using much stronger language) It turns out that the person who e-mailed me was an old friend and I was the person he bought his first chameleons from years ago. I sent him a pic the next day using a different camera and this time outside in natural light. Once we spoke he even got online and apologized! (my hats off to ya'!!) Another example; "I hate you, how much are your Jackson's Chameleons? or " How much for your Alligators shipped to BLANK ? I'd like to BLANK it!(Sexual)??? At least I can understand these...kids or just strange people? The ones that irritate me most are the petty ones such as.."You mispelled the name. Why would anyone buy from you?"
(I'm sorry i'm not perfect. I get in a hurry sometimes and don't double check myself. I make every effort to be accurate in my grammar and spelling. However, the areas in my life that I pay attention to are; 1) The welfare and care of my specimens.2)Correct and honest representation of specimens I sell.3) Proper and correct packing/shipping methods of those specimens. If I spell a name incorrectly or post a "not so great picture" it's because of the above priorities and the fact that we have 300-400 specimens to care for at any given time. Not including the rescues and programs we conduct! ) Recently I was sent these two messages, "Take a good look at your photos. You are advertising Egyptians but, you are showing Desert Horned Vipers and a box with "Monacle" on it. Would you buy from this guy?"
Also, "Do you know the difference between Cuvier's and Schneider's Dwarf Caiman? Lol's Which are you selling?"

In response to the "Monacle"/Egyptian message....The add was posted with the horned vipers being sold as well as the Egyptian's several weeks ago. The horned vipers were sold. Rather than keep having e-mails in regards to the vipers, I deleted them from the add. However, I did not want to go through the entire process of re-posting pics so I left that pic attached to the add. The "monacle" in question is an EGYPTIAN!
Just because the box has monacle written on it does not mean it was incorrect. I usually use removable labels on my cages however, that box had been marked with a permanent marker years ago. I see no reason to throw it away because it has a non-removable marking on it? Anyone who knows cobras would have been able to correctly I.D. the specimen in the pic! His response to this explanation was,"I'm pointing this out as I am sure there are more who would judge this mistake harshly. Hundreds of dollars are payed to an unknown individual with nothing but a website and a few pics to make a determination of honesty. Hope you understand." (I didn't know I was an unknown idividual? I have over 30 adds posted daily. Plus iv'e been in business for over 25 years! It's not tough to do a search.) I feel that this is rather petty. If I were addressing this I would have sent the following message,
"I am e-mailing you in regards to your add for "Egyptian Cobras". Were you aware that you have a pic attached which shows horned vipers? Also, the Egyptian pictured is in a box which is marked Monacle? Just wanted to let you know in case you did not catch those facts. I know it's minor but, it may confuse some people." I THINK MY VERSION OF HOW THE QUESTION SHOULD HAVE BEEN ASKED IS MUCH LESS CONFRONTATIONAL AND ASKED IN A MANNER WHICH SHOWS SOME RESPECT AND COURTESY! (Your thoughts on that statement are appreciated.) Now... the second message on the Caiman.. I replied that I was quite aware of the differences between the Caiman species. I listed the latin names in my response and explained that Dwarf and Smoothfront were common trade names for the species. I also, explained that the listing of Dwarf/Smoothfront meant that I was offering both!
Again I consider this rather rude and disrespectful in regards to the structure and implication within the statement. If he had simply asked if I were offering both species and if the were the mentioned Camain species I would not have been offended. Unless I'm responding to a Taxonomy Forum or offering an uncommon species i'm not going to list a latin name. Keep in mind that the common names are different everywhere. I generally use a U.S. trade name.
Some of us have more important matters we must address on a daily basis. Simple small mistakes in grammar or pics can and often do happen. PLEASE EVERYONE.. Before you jump the gun and send off a nasty message please take the time to ask simple questions and get the facts before you make judgements. If someone makes a mistake and you feel the NEED to point it out please do so with at least some courtesy. If an animal looks bad in a pic or the pic looks altered, simply ask the the person to please take another pic and maybe in a different area.(inside/outside) Well this has become too long. LOL's!! I need to get back to the more important matters. I think i'm going to put a big Diamondback in the "monacle" box and see if I get the same response!!! LOL's Please let me know your thoughts.. Thanks Ray G. HBR. Happy Holidays Everyone!!!!!

 

[Mark and Aimee]

On the Caiman thing...

I saw your ads for Dwarf Caiman. I was actually shopping for a Cuviers at the time. Unfortunately, it WAS difficult to determine what you were selling. Smoothfront/Dwarf is not such a good descriptor, because I saw that in the subject, and just moved on. I figured you were selling P. trionatus, not P. palpebrosus.

After going through quite a few ads, I finally came to the conclusion that unless the subject of the ad states "Cuvier's Dwarf Caiman" or Paleosuchus palpebrosus, they are probably selling Smooth Fronted Caiman (P. trigonatus).

 

[herpetological]

Understandable, however the point I was making was that it could have been handled with a little more "tact". Yes, on occasion I do make mistakes... Mainly, taking for granted people understand what you are refering to... A good example is when I speak with many dealers i'll ask if they need any "yellows", "reds" or "Jackson's" etc. They know i'm refering to Yellow Rat snakes, Corn Snakes or Jackson Chameleons. For the typical person this would be confusing. Maybe sometimes it's better to err on the side of giving too much information. Bad habit on my part. If a dealer called me and asked if I wanted any Smoothfronts or Dwarf's I would know what he was refering to. Again more of a matter of pointing out how people could better "hone" their communication skills and still be courteous.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Ray.... you wrote....

....I deleted them from the add. ....

There is only ONE "d" in ad.... I will never buy from you again!! (until the next time).... lol

Neil

 

[herpetological]

Hey... I just noticed that the "d" was missing from my Neil Gubitz Business dictionary!!! Now I know who to blame!!! I read it just fine...What don't know a "elete" is?? LOL's Actually, I noticed that a "t" is missing off of a "the" in the statement! Damn, now I can't buy from myself! NEW ONE!: [email protected] ,
"I'm interested in your green tree pythons but, I was told that if you sex them before they are 1 year old it will mess up their delicate spines and everything...is this true?" This was a vaild question and I replied, "If they are probed it is almost certain that vertabral damage can be done to the neonate's prehensile tail. However, they can be sexed using manual eversion of the hemipene's. This should only be done by an experienced person. Improper or too rough of an examination can result in the same. I've done this many times and have yet to have it result in any damage." Now at this point I sent the reply back whith the expectation that this was a vaild question rather than an attack on my knowledge/credibility. The e-mail came back as un-deliverable. I noticed that the e-mail had: @justplainstupid attached? Now this combined with the fact that question is a misnomer in regards to GTP's leads me to believe that this was simply a way to call me "just plain stupid" because I stated the sex on the GTP? Now I know this person who goes by loggman88.
I found his correct address and simply asked if he was the person who had sent the e-mail. No reply! It's not that important to me...Those who know me are aware of my reputation and experience. I'm just pointing out another incident where people make attacks but, will not stand up to their convictions or have an "intelligent" debate. E-mail terrorist's!!! LOL's !!! In closing, "loggman 88" if this was not you... Please respond since I would like to make you aware of someone else using your addy. If it was you...be a man and have an "intelligent" conversation with me on the sexing issue with GTP neonates. I know this seems petty... It's just that this has gotten irritating! At least 98% of the 60 odd e-mails I get every day are from courteous people..even if they don't always agree with me.

 

[Mark and Aimee]

I totally understand where you're coming from, but thought it was a good opportunity to hit on the Caiman subject.

If a dealer called me and asked if I wanted any Smoothfronts or Dwarf's I would know what he was refering to.

You see - I bought a "Dwarf Caiman" from one of these dealers... And it's a stinkin Smoothfront. Not at all what I wanted. But I assumed that dealer knew what he was talking about, since he had been selling crocodilians for quite some time.

 

[herpetological]

I understand...

However, a simple question as to the specifics would have sufficed. Also, always request a photo if in doubt. This may simply be a case where the use of latin as well as the use of a common name would be helpful. I just was sent a "new one". This actually made me laugh!! They responded to a post for Adult Leopard Geckos. The statement was basically I should be ashamed and that it was ridiculous that I was keeping Adult Leopard Geckos in cups! Too funny!!! Yes we hatch them out and they are raised in little 8 ounce deli cups!!! Of course it was anonymous again! Would it ever occur to the that: 1)We had just recieved the shipment.2)It's much easier to take a pic with the specimen in a container. Particularly lizards or frogs. Oh well, can't make everyone happy!

 

[dwedeking]

We get these from time to time.

One I remember in particular was: "How can you humanely ship reptiles?". Of course anonymous so you can't actually educated the person to proper shipping methods and why it's not a big deal to ship them if done properly.

While the internet has greatly increased the knowledge of those keeping herps and built up the community it also has allowed the lower genetic forms (those that don't know how to interact civilly or pass their knowledge on without the attitude) to spread as well.

The thing to remember is there is always someone out there that has more experience and knowledge than you. When you send an email to a person he may just be that one and you'll look like an ass by being uncivil. Whereas if you approach the situation without the chip on your shoulder your assistance in pointing out an error will be appreciated and if by chance you are wrong you may get knowledge in return instead of a flame email

 

[The BoidSmith]

Anonymous e-mails are really anoying. If someone is inquiring about an animal I posted for sale my first questions before even answering any questions are invariably: what's your name and which state are you in (just ti have an idea if shipping could be a problem)? If they don't bother to answer those two questions I'm more than likely not going to contact them again. It is common courtesy to introduce yourself when making an inquiry. Something like: "Hi, my name is so and so, and I'm interested in the animal you posted". Very seldom do I get a nasty e-mail (the last one I got was when I offered frozen rodents for sale). Those don't get a reply, period.

Kindly

 

[herpetological]

I usually don't let it bother me... The internet is a great tool for both education and business. However, it seems that when someone can hide behind a computer and use false names and e-mail address's, they seem to loose the qualities of common courtesy and respect. With the increase in "crooks", "liars", and "theives" in the business everyone is cautious and should be. However, that does not give free reign to make snap judgements and be an Axx to anyone you feel is even remotely wrong. I get e-mails all the time requesting venomous species, crocodilians and protected species. Most are not even aware of the laws in regards to their locality. I simply reply and explain which permits they need. Most are surprised and say thanks for the information. Others are really rude! I had one guy call me names because I wouldn't illegally ship alligators out of the country to Canada.(Via Fed/Ex marked as products!) Actually, I will correct myself on one statement. There are no more crooks percentage wise in the business now than there was 20 years ago. It's always been a problem. However, with the "information age" has come better communication! In addition it's always human nature to point out the bad. The good in people is what we expect. Maybe that's why we do not see that many "good guy" posts. Just think of how many thousands of shipments go out that are "just what the customer ordered"!

 

[The BoidSmith]

Ray,

You made some very valid points.

There are no more crooks percentage wise in the business now than there was 20 years ago.

Not so sure about that one though. It could be that as you said communications were not as good years ago. But it seems as if crime has increased over the years. Years ago milk was delivered to our door in glass bottles, just imagine, we used to leave the money in the empty bottles just in our porch! Locking your car? What was the point! I do believe things have changed quite a bit.

However, with the "information age" has come better communication!

Yes, I agree. And with it the TV. In MHO a very powerful teaching tool, both for good and for bad.

In addition it's always human nature to point out the bad.

You know what my dream was sometime ago? A newspaper that will only broadcast good news. Imagine the cover, only good deeds, successful people, etc. Will it outsell the national enquirer though. mmhhh?

The good in people is what we expect.

Absolutely. In fact if you are always expecting the worse in people you will not be able to tell a righteous person from a crook when they approach you.

Maybe that's why we do not see that many "good guy" posts.

True. That and because the person that was scammed also expected the good and he/she did not get it. Out of his honesty he doesn't want someone to go though what he went through. In my first "internet experience" I was scammed badly by a guy with plenty of good references (he has now dissappeared from the herp business). It was at that time a very hard experience that probably set me back years in my breeding plans. At that point in time I have never heard of the BOI.

Just think of how many thousands of shipments go out that are "just what the customer ordered"!

Yes, I agree 100%. How many good guys post do you read from Ralph Davis, The Barkers, or The Sutherlands? Not that many right? Do they care? Not at all! That's because they "live good business", and everyone knows you can't go wrong with them.

Want good reading for a rainy day? Read the article "The measure of experience" at the VPI web page. I know you among others will enjoy it as much as I did.

Regards

 

[loggman88]

Ray, I'm really sorry about the [email protected] thing, that was my old email account because my friends and I used to make videos that were takeoffs of "Jackass" that were called just plain stupid, so we had that website. I'm very sorry, I was used to typing that in on kingsnake, so I accidentally put that instead of my new email address ([email protected]). Sorry for the confusion, I've made sure it wont happen again to anyone.

 

[herpetological]

Not a problem Logan.. Thanks.

 

[sputnik]

HUH

Ray,

I sell stuff and know what your getting at. If you make spelling mistakes... no big deal, hell, we all do. As long as we and you and them know what you are talking about, who cares?

emails from the "usual" people with a negative IQ are common place. Best deleted and forgotten about... not easy, I know I just wish some of these people would get a grip, but it happens no matter what business you are in.

 

[sschind]

You could look at it as though these people are doing you a favor.

When I see things in ads that turn me off I just ignore them and all future ads from the same person. Sellers will never know what it is that is keeping me from looking at their ads. By sending you these emails these people are actually (although it is doubtful that this is their intention) helping you. By making you aware of things that may cause others like myself to skip your ads and not say anything about it, you may take better care in the future to not make the same mistakes. If it were worth the time, and it probably isn't because as you have said most of these emails will not allow a response, you could write a nice thank you message.

Something like

" thank you for taking the time to contact me regarding my ad for the ????. Sometimes in my endevor to create the best possible conditions for my animals I overlook what I consider to be such petty concerns. It is clear to me now that to people who are much smarter than I do not consider these matters petty. In fact I had no Idea that there were people such as yourself who were so concerned with pointing out the mistakes of others with the sole intention of making them better human beings. In the future I will try to become the better person that you are encouraging me to be. Taking the time to point out my faults only shows me that you care, and that you have confidence in me that I can change. That alone would be enough to inspire anyone to try to become a better person. It will not be easy, but I will give it my best effort. I am sure that with you watching over me to help keep me on the right path I will succeed. It will not happen over night. I will probably slip up and revert to my old ways on occasion, but I am sure you and others like you will not waver from your all important duties as the guardians of petty insignificances and eventually help me reach what I now realize should be the goal of every single person on the planet. PERFECTION. I must go now because I am afraid that the tears of joy welling up in my eyes, just from knowing that there is someone out there who cares so much about me, will drip onto my keyboard and short circuit something.

Before I go though I just want to say that you are clearly the most kind, unselfish, and caring individual, that I have ever had the pleasure of becoming aquainted with. Your actions will inspire me to help others. I can only hope that some day I will become 1/2, no make that 1/4, no, 1/10th that man you are. I bid you farewell now and add that I am eternally in your debt, and in awe of your dedication and abilities.

Yours truely and most humbly

Raymond


P.S.

Go F*** yourself" (please note, this is optional)