Albino Ball Python Died!!

[Adam Block]

The reason I’m posting this here is because I’m not 100% sure what direction this post is going to take and while I could see it taking a turn that may warrant it’s placement here that may not be the case after the facts are in. My basic objective of this post is to find out if the situation I’m about to outline is an isolated occurrence or if it has happened to others as well. If in fact this is an isolated occurrence then I feel it should be handled in a totally different non-public manner, however if others have had the same thing or something similar happen then I feel it should be publicly addressed. Below is the outline of events:

8/02 My partner purchased an Albino ball python at the Daytona Show. This snake was born the same month of the show, something not mentioned at the time and only recently brought to my attention.

8/05 The animal was place in my care, was feeding fair and in good physical condition.
Over the next six weeks this snake fed five times with no troubles and seemed very healthy.

10/02 The animal was fed and two days later ended up regurgitating her meal between nine and eleven pm. Less then twelve hours later the animal was dead.

At this point, within 6 hours of her death she was placed in the refrigerator as it was a Sunday and nothing could be done until the following day. She was then taken to the UofA where a necropsy was done. I will post that report within the next few days however it was found that the cause of death was chronic Gout. Keep in mind that was the only health issue, there were no protozoa found of any kind.

Upon further research I’ve found that this can be either genetic or something caused by an extended period of dehydration. Per the breeder this animal was born in August and based on this information there is no possible way the time frame of two months would have allowed the animal to be dehydrated for a long enough period of time that it’s uric acid or uric salt levels could have reached a point to cause it’s death from gout as opposed to dehydration. With that in mind the conclusion is that this overproduction of uric acid and salts may be the result of a genetically inherited defect.

Now this is information that I’ve sat on for some time only because I felt that it’s an extremely serious matter and I understand fully the implications of the above information. However, upon speaking with another breeder we had been talking about our ball pythons. I mentioned that I had suffered the loss and was shocked, as I hadn’t had an animal unexpectedly die in a very long time. He proceeded to tell me about a ball python he purchased from the same breeder that had died and he too was shocked, as he hadn’t lost a snake in a very long time either.

This information got me thinking that there may be others that have suffered the same loss and would leave one of only a few options.

1) It’s an odd occurrence however nothing more then chance.
2) There happened to be a birth defect that caused the isolated issues in these two animals.
3) There is a genetic issue that needs to be addressed.

The other breeder opted not to look further into the cause of death due to the cost of the animal and the cost of the necropsy. For myself, I produced over 500 eggs this year and to the best of my knowledge not on of those babies has died. Because of this I felt it odd that this breeder has had two well feeding snakes (As hardy as ball pythons) just up and die over the course of a couple of days without any warning.

If you’ve had a snake die in a similar manner/situation I would very much like to hear about it. As I said this post is meant to bring out the facts and go from there if there is in fact anything else that needs to be addressed. If there isn’t I would like to see this moved to another forum or deleted. Until that time I will keep the name of this breeder to myself, as I don’t feel there is enough information to conclude anything and I’m not sure if anything other then the person’s willingness to address this issue has come into question.

I ask that you please keep this thread on topic and if you feel the need to address other issues please either start a new thread or email me. I would like to keep this free of insinuations, insults, threats and allegations. I’m doing nothing more then looking for facts and have done my best to state facts as opposed to what I think. In the cases I have stated what my thoughts were I’ve tried to look at them with an open mind and think about the options as opposed to what I think. I’m also not sure what if anything is due to me, as the animal did not die of a car issue but a genetic one. I don’t have any issue with loosing the money I have. I do however have an issue with getting such a high dollar snake so quickly out of the egg and with the breeders seeming unwillingness to work with me. I also have an issue with other people buying animals the may be dying from the same thing if in fact that turns out to be a valid concern

I will post a photo of the snake taken less then 5 days before it’s death. For reference the piece of wood next to the snake is 5.5 inches long. The reason for this photo is two fold. I think it shows the state of the snake and may also help people who may have had the same thing happen decide if it looks to be from the same line as this albino is fairly distinct looking.

Thanks you for taking the time to read this,
Adam Block

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[CheriS]

Rob

Sorry for the loss of a beautiful young snake. I wanted to contribute some other onfo about gout. First the dehydration thought, in a young snake, it has been found that it does not take extended periods of time without fluid, the combination of stress and lack for hydration over a few days can cause gout to develop, not be noticed and the animal die within a few months, even if well cared for during those few months.

Many of the earlier imported pythons from New Guinea and Indonesia died within two months of arrival, although they were very well cared for after arrival. Pathology showed they died of gout that was caused due to lack of hydration during shipping. This happened many times over, so the time factor for yours expiring could have been something that happened prior to you receiving her.

Also, inbreeding has resulted in many reptiles being unable to clear the uric acids from their blood, and this would affect most the reptiles in the same clutches. Another factor that can cause it is too low temperature causing the initial build up, even if kept at correct temperature later, the reptile can and many did die weeks later from experiencing it at a young age as the damage was already done.

I seriously doubt it is anything you did, the time factor of death between 6-8 weeks after you got it from gout would indicate it was a problem of too young a snake being exposed to stress and most likely lack of hydration/proper temps during the trip to and at the show. Also since it was an albino there is a good chance there was inbreeding along its genetic line that could have been a contributing factor.

Trying to locate others that may have purchased snakes from the same clutch or even breeder could tell you if they had ball python die under like circumstances, but unless you knew the conditions or time factor in the arrival at the show, it would very hard to tell if genetic or enviromental. Reptiles that are dehydrated can bounce right back and appear fine within hours, but you can not tell the internal, slow lurking damage that may appear weeks later it caused.

You may have some cause with the breeder if your Vet or the lab that did the pathology can state their est time factor as to the onset of the problem.

 

[Adam Block]

Cheri, that was an excellent post and helped educate me to some extent as what the cause of death may have been.

What is very hard to deal with is the fact that I've been keeping snakes for 23 years and have a good understanding of their care needs. This holds just as true in all the snakes I keep but even more so in a snake that just cost $2500.

Looking over the time frame I hadn't even thought about the fact that the snake was born and within 5-7 days was transported cross Country to Daytona and then of course kept at the show in less then perfect conditions.

I would also assume through the trip and well at the show the snake was kept without water. Do you feel the snake may have been taken there and sold at too young of an age?

Adam Block

 

[WebSlave]

This is interesting in it's own right.

How many people provide water for their animals over a show weekend? I found that my hatchling corn snakes were showing signs of distress in two days being without water. And I provided water on the way to the show and then on the way back home. I would keep water dishes in the deli cups for the trip to the show, remove them on Saturday morning, then replace them at breakdown on Sunday evening.

After seeing signs of minor dehydration distress in them by late Sunday afternoon, I now keep water dishes in the deli cups with the animals until they are sold at the show.

Let's look at the time frame we have to deal with. We begin packing up for the Daytona Beach show on Wednesday and finish up late on Thursday. Friday we are driving to the show for setup. The show runs thru Saturday and Sunday, and we leave immediately after the show to come on back home. We are only 4.5 hours from Daytona Beach, but even so, if we did not provide drinking water for the baby snakes, the first ones packed up would be without water from Wednesday until, at the earliest, late Sunday night. More likely it would be early Monday before we would get around to putting them up and offering them a drink. So that could be as long as 5 days without a drink in a worst case scenario.

What is this time frame like for someone coming from a much longer distance? Can 5+ days without water cause this sort of problem for a baby ball python?

And I guess what this thread is heading towards: If such is the case, is the seller negligent in selling an animal subjected to this stress and are they liable for the lethal results?

 

[ChadOsborne]

price

Your partner bought a $2500 snake and didn't even ask when it was born? Did the person you bought the snake from breed it? What's there take on the situation?

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Now Adam.... Come on, man.... at least, let's be fair??.... Why is it, that when ANYTHING goes wrong, TWO MONTHS down the road, it ALWAYS becomes the dealer's fault???.... How do YOU know that his babies weren't given water while at the show??.... From what I understand, even the breeder only had the snake for about a week???.... YOU had it for TWO MONTHS!!.... If I had a snake worth $2500, you're damned right I'd have it hydrated!.... This is SO unfair to the breeder of this unfortunate animal (or two).... but to insinuate that he has some sort of plague inherent in his "line", is totally uncalled for!.... All you know is that the snake died from gout (and that's if the vet is correct!, all I know is that I've seen a lot more animals die while in the vet's care, than in the breeder's)....
Now, if this all pans out to be true, that (somehow) you can actually PROVE that there is a defect in his line.... then, yes, he's probably going to owe a lot of people a lot of money.... but, in the meantime.... don't even HINT that he has a problem.... you should have put this on the GBD, and just asked a simple medical question concerning gout and if it could be related to ANY breeder.... remember.... YOU had that snake for two months, he had it for a week.... you want to calculate the odds of who's at fault here??

....Neil

 

[Adam Block]

The snake was produced by the person it was purchased from. The reason that it's date of birth didn't come into play was because other animals were purchased at the same time and those dates were of higher concern then the albino ball. He also gave me the impression that he hadn't had any other Albinos at the time of the show and to some extentled me to believe he rushed them there so he would have some to offer.

My post is only there to show facts as I see them and as they happend. I place no fault in that post and I ask for nothing other then peoples thoughts on the topic at hand. I'm asking a question and nothing more. For that matter I'm keeping all the personal emotion I have in this issue out of the thread as best I can as I don't feel it has anything to do with the topic. Where I have stated my thoughts I've laid them out in a maner of options and not one choice.

To answer your question Chad, the breeder is basicly unwilling to do a thing about the matter. He staits he knows his animals and it's not possible that it died from anything due to his care, a birth defect or genetic issue. He also refuses to believe the animal would have died no matter who's care it was in.

There are people out there smarter then myself with more information on how Gout effects reptiles. If you have input please feel free to contribute as I'm not in any way the authority on the matter.

Adam Block

 

[cka]

Adam, a question about the animals that produced your baby...was it an albXalb?...outcrossed hets?...just wondering; with the price of albino balls it would seem people may be breeding any het babies either to each other or back to the parents, concentrating any suspected bad traits right on down the line, instead of taking time to diversify the line thru outcrossing, altho if (big if) this particular line of albino did have some genetic "flaws" outbreeding really wouldn't help...definitely no expert on genetics or ball python morphs, just curious....Sorry to hear about it, man...chris

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Well, Adam.... OK.... Is Gout contageous??.... Could your snake POSSIBLY have contracted it from other snakes at the show??
The way you worded your "question", there leaves NO DOUBT your objective.... a blind man could pick it right up.... There is NO WAY you can prove the dealer is at fault in this??.... IF this thread DOES start to get a lot of responses, you're, eventually, going to HAVE TO tell us his name??.... If not, this should have been in the GBD.... sorry, buddy.... but, I'm siding with the dealer on this one (so far)....

....Neil

 

[CheriS]

Unfortunately, we have to be self regulating in the age that young reptiles should be sold. IMO considering that ball python hatchling should be keep to miminal stress the first few months of life and a good eating pattern established, these being only days old, brought across country, then exposed to show conditions, I would have been surprised if they did thrive, even in the best of hands. It has nothing to do with the care they received after bought

In the 1980's many were brought in from Africa, Indonesia and other locations and suffered this exact problem. Understand, these were not wild caught young, the mothers were caught gravid and the eggs hatch in captivity, then shipped to the US. These were a few weeks old and in transit sometimes less than 2 days. They survived the trip fine, but the majority did die of gout within the first two months. They went to Universities and Zoo's, to people knowledgable of the care and maintainance of them. The best care in the world could not undo what already had been done to them. Fortunately, those places did have pathology done and it is documented that this was the cause of death, too young from many locations, to many locations and many lines. Its enviromental, even if a short term of time, certainly not the fault of the owners they went to.

Rich, I think, someone transporting and selling hatchling that young, should be aware of this, it was very common knowledge to the industry that were bringing these in during the 80's when the big market for them developed.

But also, since there are no regulations regarding the age reptiles can be sold at, we as owners need to avoid purchasing them that young, even if we are experienced in their care.

There is no way around the fact that the stress of too young, transit, show setups(lack of proper heat, water and the additonal stress of handling and traffic) is not in their best interest and MANY pathology from past like situations, verified that the young died of gout due to those factors, in the same time period that Adam's did in with the same diagnoses.

Is the dealer liable? Legal no, ethically... no doubt

Should others be warned that a dealer/breeder sells young under these conditions or one you buy may have been under those conditions in the past and likely to have the same result? I sure would want to know before I spent $2500, I think anyone would.

The dealer/breeder created the situation that caused the death and loss, at minimum he should be informed that this happened and the studies that back it so he can avoid it in the future and see what he has to say. If this was the cause, ones he brought back from the show would be suffering the same fate and he may be unaware that this is a documented problem, unaware that this is the cause since it happens several weeks AFTER the cause and to animals that seem to be thriving.

I would be interested in knowing if these babies came from a well known breeder,as the ones I saw at the Daytona show were from breeders that are very knowledgable and most on their own sites advise against the sort of things this baby was exposed to in the packing, transite and selling at that young of age.

Neil: Gout is not contagious, it is either genetic or damage caused by enviroment, does not show up physical immediately, usually taking several weeks to show physical signs and if left untreated is fatal. The probability that Adam did anything to cause this is almost zero in the time factor involved.

 

[Rob BryertonRKK]

Adam, Sorry for your loss. He was beautiful.
IMPO and just about every snake book I ever read, the breeder should have never allowed a neonate that young to be put through all that stress. Every keeper and especially breeders should know how delicate reptiles are in their first few months of there lives and how to care for them. Moving them across the country at a month old shows care for something else and not the health of the animal to me.
I'm not sure anything can be done for your partner, he should have asked the age of the BP. But now maybe the seller will keep his neonates in his care for 2-3 months and make sure this won't happen again.
I don't let my babies go until they are at least 2 months old and are eating defrosted rats consistently. I believe this will help them get over the stress of new living conditions and new owners until they feel comfortable to eat in someone else's care.
Rob

 

[franklinedwards60]

I have to disagree on age

Some animals age is a factor. But I feel that a young snake can be sold and thrive. If it was well taken care of. Also all babies are as only healthly as the mom was when she was bred.

I know that Rob knows this as he breed Veild and is you have eggs from an unhealthy female you will have a high mortality rate of babies. I have bought and sold out of the egg snakes and have had no problems as of yet.


The first few days all is new for a baby snake and I believe that no one should tell me the age of my animals before I sell.

I can see that is where a ban could start.

Just my thoughts.

Also I can see this should have been put in a differnt spot on the forum.

 

[Gilbert Thompson]

Sorry to here about this Adam!
Gilbert Thompson

 

[DISCERN]

Adam,

That really sucks about your python and I am sorry. I have had snakes die for no apparent reason, only to take them to the vet and have the vet tell me as much as I knew: nothing.
I have heard of gout, and it sounds like what CheriS is saying makes sense.
It may be something that if it is genetic and from that particular breeder's line, he may not believe your claims cause he honestly feels like his animals are 100% healthy and by no means is he trying to be shady, but simply doesn't believe it and may have had no bad luck with his parents.
It is a hard thing to figure out, since your snake died months after getting it and it ate fine for you for a while.
I am confused though. You stated that your friend bought the snake on 8/2 at the Daytona show and you received it on 8/5. You may have your dates mixed up as the Daytona show was on 8/17-8/18. So what I am wondering is when exactly was your python born?
Billy

 

[DISCERN]

oops! forgot my last name!
Billy Fraser

 

[Jon Tarutis]

Also with regards to dates....why did wait until now to bring this to out? If the animal(s) died in the beginning of October, why wait until January?
Just curious....
Jon

 

[KNOBTAIL]

ADAM

I can appreciate the loss, but this is the business we chose. If their were no guarantees for that extended period of time, the loss is yours to incurr. Animals in general are sold on a basis of being "outwordly " healthy. I can assume their was no misrepresentation of the animal, and it was picked up "sight seen". Once the sale has been consummated, the obligation becomes yours. The loss of any animal is unfortunate, and although you may have been in the business of breeding for a considerable period of time, can only provide you with a better opportunity of making wise choices, but even under the best of circumstances, the final responsibility is yours. JERRY TRESSER

 

[Adam Block]

Thank you all for your kind words. Just to address a few of your questions right off the bat. With regard to the dates I laid out, I’d meant to outline the month/year and forgot that’s what I was doing with the 8/5 date. I was trying to convey the snake was in my care three days after her purchase and not that she was in my care on the 5th of August.

Regarding why I’ve waited as long as I have. I felt like many of you, that the buyer is responsible and if the animal dies it’s their loss. However, in speaking with the other breeder who had a ball python die under the same circumstances from the same breeder I felt there might be something else to this. After all, you have to admit loosing two snakes that you’ve produced is fairly odd over just a couple of month period.

With that in mind I contacted the breeder to get their feelings in the matter and see if they were aware of this or what their thoughts were. The breeder was understandably very defensive in the matter but almost too much so. Going so far as to say they knew their animals and it was not possible. I felt this was odd and as we spoke I started seeing things that worried me in their story.

1) The breeder mentioned they have the most genetically diverse line of Albinos in the Country but within 15 minutes of that told me they knew all the Albino Balls they produced because they didn’t produce more then 15 of them. Explainable yes but very much so odd in my opinion.

2) The breeder also mentioned the timeframe of the animal’s birth regarding how well he remembered the snake in question. Something that was not asked however, what was asked is if the animals (bought a yearling het at the same time) were both in great shape and feeding well, this was answered with a yes.

With that said I thought there might be more to this. If this were a $100 or even $1000 snake I wouldn’t have thought twice about the whole thing. I also think much of what you’re all saying would apply even more. However, given the dollar amount I think breeders of higher dollar snakes have a responsibility to not only their customers to give them well established animals and not fresh out of the eggs babies but to the snakes as well. John Romeo is a good example of this, I purchased a het Pied from him and as a 02 baby the snake came to me at 375 grams. Even today if I were to call him and say the animal died of the same things I’ve talked about he would do right on the situation, as would I. For that matter I purchased 1.2 pieds from a breeder and he went so far as to tell me if the male died on me he would lend me a loaner the first year asking nothing in return. I think the standard of customer service many higher dollar snake breeders show is far above and beyond what is expected or even needed.

I guess what I’m getting at here is that I mentioned to the breeder that while he has nothing in his terms to cover this and I feel there is a fair amount of evidence to conclude the error may have been on his end that I would feel as if the deal was made right by replacing that Albino with a het Albino. I feel that puts 65% plus of the money loss on myself and is very fair to us both.

I don’t want anything that isn’t right in this. Mainly I want to be sure somebody else doesn’t have this happen to them. Also, if the breeder has a total unwillingness to make anything in this situation right I want people to know this breeder is selling animals so young and if they die because of that is totally unwilling to accept any fault, not only will you be out the money but mainly the snakes are dying.

Hope that clears some things up and thanks a lot for reading this,

Adam Block

 

[KNOBTAIL]

well ADAM

i guess it boils down to a question of obligation Their are some sellers who seem to feel its in their best interest to obligate themselves well beyond the agreed sale, while others do not. In either scenerio, it does not make one any better than the other, nor is the dollar amount of any consequence. A $ 1,000 loss to someone is just as painful to a $ 100. loss to someone else, so the money does not enter the picture either. What you are left with is the "risk factor" and that no one can forsee. You purchased an expensive snake, and you had it for an extended period of time, and you lost it. These things happen, and its an unforseen loss. Its just regrettable that the loss was when the snake was in your posession. JERRY TRESSER

 

[Adam Block]

Jerry, I want to be sure that I'm seeing what you're saying clearly. For this reason I'm going to phrase the same point differently.

What you're saying is that if somebody sells an animal. And say this snake has IBD (like gout incurable) and when you get the snake it looks to be in excellent health. You're saying that if it dies two months later because it was sold to you with IBD that the buyer is out the money and the seller has no accountability there?

On the same accord you're also saying that if a snake is sold to you with some protozoa and needs to be taken to the vet that the buyer is 100% responsible for any costs in bringing the animal back to health?

I'm only asking because from the looks of your statements you're telling people that under no circumstances would you refund a buyer their money or replace an animal after two months regardless of the snake’s cause of death. I’m only trying to be so clear as I don't think I know of many other breeders who would publicly admit this.

I offer a 6-month promise on my snakes so my customers know they will be doing well. This covers a genetic issue as well as poor feeding, biting or anything else. I've also refunded a person their money two years after the fact on a snake that was sent as a male and turned out to be a female.

The reason I purchased from this breeder is because of the value of the snake. I was assured that I was getting a healthy animal free of any troubles at the time of purchase. Because there is nothing to address the issue of health on their site I took those words that the animal was healthy at face value when in fact the animal was not healthy at the time of purchase. The underlying health problem at the time of purchase is what ultimately causes her death.

Adam Block