Warning about Cornsnake ad on KS

[John Albrecht]

Glades Herp is advertising WC Okeetee corns, but when I tried to get precise info on them they did not make a distinction between Okeetees and any other cornsnake from south of Columbia, South Carolina. When I pressed them on this to see if they were at least from Jasper Cnty their reply was that they were all the same to them so they did not obtain that degree of data from the collector.

I certainly don't wanna get into a fight with them but I felt that there might be some that just "trusted" them to be from around Okeetee Hunt Club or at least from Jasper Cnty and that apparently cannot be ascertained for any particular specimen they are offering.

It might not be a big deal to others but this is a big deal to me. Hope this info is helpful.

 

[Darin Chappell]

While I agree that animals identified as "okeetee" ought to be wc or from wc stock taken from the okeetee hunt club (or at least Jasper Co.), I think it may be unfair to see Glades Herp in a bad light on this. The reason I say this simply because there is no real definition of what constitutes "okeetee" anymore in the cornsnake world.

To some, it simply means animals from that specific region, regardless of coloration (there are corns found in Jasper Co. that would hardly evoke the name "okeetee" if one were not aware of their origin).

To others, the name "okeetee" is really a name for a phase of cornsnake, regardless of where it was actually found or what its lineage might be. Dark red saddles, surrounded by thick black outlines, on an orange ground color is enough for many to call an animal "okeetee." Although many try to distinguish this from the locality specific animals by calling those that have the okeetee look "okeetee phase" animals.

To still others (Kathy Love, for example), an animal must be from the okeetee hunt club/Jasper Co. area AND exhibit those characteristics described above in order for it to be called a true okeetee. Personally, this is what I agree with, and it is how I will advertise my hatchlings. However, this is not in any way an industry standard, and there are MANY who flatly disagree.

Even so, the debate is an honest one, and I cannot see how those who are advertising their animals in a way that is widely accepted as honest and clear are doing anything wrongfully. That is just my opinion on the matter, though. Take it or leave it as you will.

 

[John Albrecht]

hmmmm

I am not disagreeing that there are different standards. However, as best I can tell the shift of the standard definition has more to do with financial motivation than it does with philosphical argument. I only posted to let people know as best as I could that Glades was taking an extremely liberal approach to the current expanded definition. The argument used to be that animals had to have Okeetee Hunt Club or vicinity lineage. Then it was expanded for the financial benefit of some to include any "Okeetee" looking animals from anywhere in Jasper county. Then it expanded to not matter what they looked like as long as they were from Jasper. Now we don't even care if the specimens are from the same county or even look anything like an Okeetee, as long as they are from somewhere in South Carolina. I suppose next year if some dealer gets a good deal on some WC specimens all the cornskakes between Orlando, FL and Richmond, VA will be Okeetees.
I was just trying to give a headsup for those interested in purer definitions.

 

[Darin Chappell]

John,

I understand and appreciate where you're coming from, don't get me wrong. However, if you ask a group of reputable cornsnake breeders/keepers to define what a true okeetee actually is, you will get those three different answers I outlined above, and many of those people who gave you one of those definitions will completely reject the validity of the other two.

The definition of "okeetee" is set in stone . . .it just depends on whose stone you happen to be reading as to what the actual definition is. That's all I was trying to point out to everyone.

 

[Clay Davenport]

The okeetee label has been bastardized for years. I have personally seen those who label any "normal" corn as okeetee. It's like calling common boas red tails, boils down to marketing, the name brings an extra few bucks.
Then it was taken to reverse okeetee, and you see animals labeled as het albino okeetee. To my knowledge, there has never been any amelanistics found from that area, so the very fact that they carry the gene means they are no longer locality specific.

These days, unless you really trust someone, and they can verify their line back to the originating stock the term is meaningless.
In the strictest sense it is a locality label, so to use it properly the animal has to be from or descended from stock of that locality. Technically, if you are a locality afficionado, the look of the snake has no bearing, it's all about where it's from.
I can accept Jasper county myself, if I were looking for locality corns. It is next to impossible to harvest corns from the hunt club itself anymore, so any fresh caught snakes supposedly from there would gain my suspicion.

 

[WebSlave]

Another point of view...

Through decades of selective breeding, I strongly suspect that Karl Kauffeld would never recognize some of the highly enhanced animals now wearing the label of Okeetee Corn.

I suspect that the entire concept of 'locality' corns (and perhaps other species as well), may very well be a study in futility trying to keep the definition stable enough to be meaningful.

IMHO

 

[John Albrecht]

just for the record

I was talking to Tom Chiang yesterday and he indicated that he knew someone that produced an amel from Wild Caughts from Okeetee. He mentioned that it was possible that this was a result of someone releasing CB back into the wild population but I felt that the amel was legit.

I also understand that one would be suspicious of anybody claiming to have a "true" okeetee, which is why I went through so much trouble to validate the claim with Glades Herp. I happen to have a wild caught from the plantation and have been faced with having to be able to "prove" it myself. I've determined that the best I can do is to keep as much detailed info about the animal that I can along with digital pics so that this data can be passed along with any progeny. If I can't get enough similiar detail from anybody selling Okeetees then I pass. At this time the only lineage I know of other than mine that has enough info to substantiate the claim to being an Okeetee is from Tom Chiang and Rich Vinnie in NY. I'd sure be interested if anybody out there had progeny that they could validate with some detail.

Corns in Okeetee and Jasper cnty in general are extremely variable. If you go down 17 toward the Savannah Wildlife Refuge you will see corns that have extremely yellow backgrounds with high contrast blotches. This is the case going up Rt 170 and off into River road also. But if you go north of Ridgeland you start to get a lot of darker animals. Seems like that area around Okeetee Hunt Club itself is sort of a blending of the upland darker colors and the lighter sandy colors. You can selectively breed from there and get almost any combo of colors or background you want.

 

[sschind]

This is more of a discussion topic but I think it is an interesting one.

This is one reason why I simply get myself interested in corn snakes. I think they are great snakes and one of the things kids like most in my shows is when I am standing up front with 6 or 7 different colors of adult corn snakes crawling all over me. For this reason I will always keep a group of them around. But, as far as breeding them goes, it is disheartening to say the least when you have some snakes that were represented to you as one thing, only to have some corn snake "experts" argue over whether or not this is what they really are, Or have someone tell you with an aire of authority "those aren't XXXX they are YYYY" and you get 2 or 3 different opinions. I know one way to get around it is to get snakes from reputable people, but even in this thread, as some have pointed out, the reputable people sometimes disagree. Unfortunately, as far as I am concerned, this will only get worse as new morphs are developed, and I am sure it will spred to pretty much everything as more and more captive breeding takes place.

Sometimes I think it is the original producers not wanting to admit that someone else can do what they have done, They may be protecting investments or it may be a matter of pride. Sometimes I know it is out of simple deceit. There are a lot of people who will try to rip you off. Sometimes I am sure it is out of ignorance. With new morphs being deveoloped every season it is hard for the casual hobbiest to stay informed. Last but not least, sometimes I'm sure it comes simply from tha fact that not everyone can, or will agree on just what makes a certain morph.

Just what the heck is a "classic" corn anyway.

Steve Schindler

 

[Darin Chappell]

I can't speak for Kathy Love on this, and she may well want to say something here, herself. However, it is my understanding that this is how Kathy differentiates between an Okeetee and an Okeetee phase animal.

Okeetees that she sells are those that have that okeetee "look" AND trace their lineage back to the okeetee hunt club/Jasper Co. locality. Those animals that simply have the "look" but are not locality specific, are what she calls "classic" corns.

It's her own invention, and she is the only one that uses it among the "big breeders" as far as I know, but it is effective enough in telling someone who knows her system what they are getting. "Classic" equals a corn with brilliantly dark black markings, deep brick-red saddles, orange-red ground color, very white belly color with stark black checkering, and some orange infusion of the belly coloration toward the tail, especially as the animal ages.

Personally, I am not a locality specific fan in corns. Mostly because the documentation is so very hard to prove, but also because I simply see no real logic in it. I mean, is it an okeetee corn if you find it on the road surrounding the okeetee hunt club? What if it is heading away fromt he club? What if it is heading toward it? What if you find it one on the okeetee hunt club, but it is anerythristic? I am certain there are others who are willing to argue vehemently for or against any given scenario, but I am not. For myself, I think that okeetees ought to have that "look" and have actual locality heritage, but I'm not going to argue with anyone about it.

Part of the problem with cornsnake morph naming is that we have named some of them for the wrong reasons. The bloodred is not a morph that really deals with coloration as much as it is a pattern mutation. Miami phase corns were first found in the miami area, but they're in other places too. Today's Miamis, due to line breeding, look very little like the wild miami in most instances. The list goes on and on, but you get the picture.

 

[Seamus Haley]

There is some good and some bad to the way in which corns have been bred over the last thirty-forty years or so...

The good aspect, although one I find a bit personally distasteful, is the manner in which they have been used as the species that layed the groundwork for our understanding of color, pigment, pattern and the causes and additional factors that come into play when looking at these conditions in reptiles... Call them the guppies of snakes, they are capable of displaying such a wide range of patterns that virtually everyone can find one they like.

Some of those patterns and colors are frequently naturally occuring, some associated with particular ranges of animals, some simply cropping up throughout the species as a product of phenotypal elasticity... and some that, while more often than not, were originally found in "the wild" aren't really naturally viable phenotypes and can be considered real flukes and mutants (Or miracles of nature I suppose, depends on your perspective).

The upside to this is, of course, the fact that the species has really greatly increased our knowledge of how color and pattern work in reptiles.

The downside is that, due to the popularity the species enjoys as a pet and due to the fact that, no matter how well doccumented and undertood it might be, some people will simply mix things indiscriminantly. It's come to the point where phenotype is a really poor indicator of genotype for the species as a whole, with a few breeders being considered trustworthy for representing their animal's genetics in an honest manner and the rest being... just corn snakes... where you cross two of what a lot of people call an Okeetee and the offspring end up being a snow, two amels, a candy cane and an anery.

It has gotten to the point where Locality has become confused with pattern or morph... Morphs are often not represented properly... and the chances of finding a "true" locality ANYTHING with verifiable lineage are so low as to be nearly impossible (As was mentioned, Okeetee locale specific is not the same as just "Looking" like an okeetee and not all animals from Okeetee will look like the pattern that is associated with the name).

The situation is not helped by people who don't know any better buying two of anything they think looks neat and crossing them... especially when the animals they're crossing are Petco stock from Gourmet Rodent and the genotype is already screwed up to start. It's no use trying to explain it to most of them either... I've worked in aquarium shops before... people will purchase two animals of the same species displaying different phenotypes and posessing a properly represented genotype... patterns that it took people selectively breeding for decades at a time some of them... and cross them "To see what happens" fully thinking that this is somehow making them look like they're grand scientists performing serious work in the field of icthyology. Reptiles where a large variety of captive colorations are avaliable are the same way. There are people capable of experimenting to see what sort of offspring are produced... but they also have a grasp of mendelian genetics and the physiological basis for color and... most importantly, will properly represent any animals sold.

Which is what it really comes down to... some people sell things under the proper label, others will fail to represent genetics properly. Some... the really good guys... will even let you know when a female was bred with other genotypes and let you know that there is a tiny possibility of sperm retention.

Is Glades in the wrong here for labeling the animals as Okeetee?

I would tend to say no... Robroy is an honest guy who understands the fact that proper representation is needed, he's been in business a long time and people can't stay that way by screwing up. As you said... when asked, Glades was up front about the fact that the animals are "okeetee phase" rather than "Okeetee locality" so the only way what they are doing is immoral or somehow wrong is if all those people selling BCI as "red tails" are crooks or all those people who don't list the subspecies of their leopard geckos are con artists. Since that's obviously not the case and Glades was honest and up front when questioned, there's nothing immoral about advertising the animals the way they are. The term has become synonymous with the phase in common use, inaccurate perhaps, but it's reality.