????sunsets????

[vinnybocknyg]

Whats up all??
I have a very good knowledge of boa genetics. I know the basics of pretty much every bci morph wheather it be pattern, color, dominant, co-dominant, recessive, simple recessive(ect;ect)
There is one I have no idea about. Sunsets?? Obviously theres hogs, columbians, and the hypo gene involved in the equation (i think) but is there a set method to produceing them or is it a hit or miss situation you have to be lucky for. If anyone has some accurate information on this subject it would be much appreciated. 07-08 will be my rookie season and Im trying to keep my options open and also trying not to produce the same old stuff.....
thanks for any info;
-Vinny

 

[extreme_bci]

I do know about the Sunsets but I highly, highly disagree with any cross breeding. Just had to get that of my chest 1st.

Ok pure Hog Island boas are a naturally hypomelanistic (and that is not just an opinion anymore it is a fact. Becuse if there were not a true hypo, there would not be any sunsets). But just like the Hypo Col. or Hypo Nic's ext... You can make super hypos from hypo to hypo breedings. And what they are calling the hypo phase of pure Hog Island boas is the Blonde phase hypo and that is a pure Hog Island. I know it's hard to fallow but just try to keep up. LOL..

So when you breed a Hypo Col. to a Blonde phase hypo a (Hog Island boa) You will get 1/2 hypos 1/2 Normal. The 1/2 that are hypos are showing more influense from the Hypo Col. gene but they still are careing the blond phase hypo's that is from the Hog Island boa.


So when you breed a pair of those hypo's togther you will get. (And this not the hole littler, just the part that is showing Hypo )

Some hypo's from the Col. gene not show any from the Blond hypo (Hog Island gene. But they will be Poss. super.

You will get some that are showing more influence from the blond phase (Hog Island) also Poss. super.

And the Sunsets is one boa that has both the super Hypo gene form the Col. and the (Blond phase hypo) Hog Island

So they are just a dbl super hypo from both hypo genes.

And if you look at a Normal pure Hog Island littler you can pick out the ones that are hypo and the ones that are super hypo and the ones that are not showing any hypo.

Thanks, Josh

 

[hhmoore]

You presented some interesting theories, Josh, some of which clash with my current understanding of both sunset boas and transference of hypomelanism in BCI. I am willing to accept that I may not be fully up to date and, therefore, would appreciate if you could post some references to this material so I can explore it further.
Thanks

btw - I posted this, as opposed to requesting the info via PM, because I figured the info would be useful to all...and appreciated by many

 

[vinnybocknyg]

Josh thanks alot. Harald i feel alittle better now that i know im not the only one still alittle confused. I like animals to be pure too but i really wanna produce some boa's that you dont see everyday and if that means doing a couple of crosses i will. I would also appreciate some literature on the subject if anyone knows were to find some.

Why would a breeding of col.hypo X hogg hypo only result in half hypo's????
Shouldnt it be at least 75% hypo????

 

[hhmoore]

Vinny - there is some confusion here...but I am not sure where it is coming from just yet. As I said, some of the theories that Josh presented flat out clash with things I thought I was pretty sure about. I'm certainly open to new ideas, as long as evidence can be presented. I just checked back on D&M's site (founders of the Sunset in the US), as well as a few others - the information given mirrored what I had seen previously.

Hogg Isle x Hypo gives you a cross, breeding these crosses back to each other gives you 25% supers, these supers are the result of the two hypos that are carrying the Hogg Isle gene. Our lineage of these crosses has produced 3 seasons running, the supers that we named sunsets. Sunsets are the result of the Hogg Isle gene and the hypo gene fused together. To date, our lineage of these 2 genes has proved to be the only one on the market that produces this flawless boa.

There have been many "rumors" and discussions about hog island boas being hypomelanistic - I have not followed them recently, but I was not aware that it was anything other than speculation. There are certainly a number of arguments against it being the case. If, as Josh has stated, it is now FACT, it also raises a number of questions that I have not seen answered...but again, I haven't been looking recently.

Also with reference to Josh's statement that when looking at a hog island litter, one could pick out the supers, the hypos, and the normals...aside from the fact that in an isolated insular population the group should be manifesting primarily as supers by this point, one cannot accurately distinguish hypos from "supers" in normal BCI so I'm not ready to accept that it can be done with the "blond phase hypos". None of the hog island breeders I have conversed with have made any mention of this being the case, either.

Lastly, Josh's explanation suggests that there two incompatible forms of hypomelanism within BCI (salmon and blonde).

None of the above is said to be argumentative, merely to demonstrate why I requested that references to the information be posted

 

[vinnybocknyg]

Well, the post by D&M is alot easier to follow. I was searching for an answer and now I feel like I found a couple more questions........
I think Im gonna leave this one alone....LOL!

 

[Griz]

Harald, I am in complete agreement with your understanding. What Josh states flies in the face of not only everything I have read but also in what I am producing. I currently have an albino sunset project that I am working on and nothing Josh states is in line with what I believe to be true. I too, would love to know where he came up with his information.

Griz

 

[Boa4u]

On July 3, 2006, I had a litter of baby boas. The dame was a Salmon Boa(co-dominant hypo) and the sire was a Hogg Island Boa. I had 11 still borns, 6 hypos, and 11 normals from this breeding. If a Hogg is a naturally occurring hypo then all the babies in this litter should have been hypomelanistic, but they were not, proving that a Hogg is not genetically hypomelanistic. I would describe a Hogg as a naturally occurring hypo looking boa but would not call it genetically hypomelanistic. Also, this paring proved my Salmon to be just a Salmon and not a Super Salmon. The non hypo babies I am calling Salmon/Hogg crosses and the hypos I am calling Hypo Salmon Hoggs. Some people refer to the hypos as Hypo Hoggs which I think can be a little confusing because it suggests that they are Hypomelanistic Hogg Island boas, which they are not because you did not breed two hoggs together and therefore do not have pure Hoggs with such a cross.

My gut feeling is that what the Hogg contributes to the sunsets is more the soft blending of colors rather than any hypomelanism.

I hope this helps.

 

[extreme_bci]

Why would a breeding of col.hypo X hogg hypo only result in half hypo's????
Shouldnt it be at least 75% hypo????[/QUOTE]

There will have to be more breeding to know more about this.

 

[Boa4u]

Why would a breeding of col.hypo X hogg hypo only result in half hypo's????
Shouldnt it be at least 75% hypo????

There will have to be more breeding to know more about this.[/QUOTE]


A "col. hypo" x "hogg hypo" would yield 100% hypos. If you are referring the outcome from my 07/03 litter please note that I said that the sire was a Hogg not a "hogg hypo".

 

[extreme_bci]

Ok here are few pics for you guys. Like I said, there will have to be more breedings to find everthing out (but I will not be the one doing that, I will leave that for someone else).

Super Hypo Sonora (Not my Pic)

And then here is my Holdback Hog Island boa from my 05 litler. You see anything that looks alike?

This info has come from afew different people. Me and a good firend has talked about it many times. I will post some other pics on what I'm talking about with the Hog Island boa littler alittle later.

Ok so If I'm wrong, then you tell me what a sunset is?

Here is afew people that agree with me that Hog Island boas are true Hypos.

http://www.cuttingedgeherp.com/boac...nhtml?profile=boaconstrictorimperator&UID=114

http://www.cuttingedgeherp.com/boac...nhtml?profile=boaconstrictorimperator&UID=114

I'm not to sure yet why some one will get only 1/2 hypo to a col. hypo to a Hog Island breeding or even to a Hog Island boas to a Hog Island boa breeding.

Did you guys see the Hog Island peruvian cross babbies? They are not showing to much of the blone phase Hypo is beacuse that is an F1 offspring. You breed F1 babbies back to each other then you will see the blond phase hypo poppping back up.

So there still is alot of info to still find out of this.

Thanks, Josh

 

[hhmoore]

There will have to be more breeding to know more about this.

A "col. hypo" x "hogg hypo" would yield 100% hypos. If you are referring the outcome from my 07/03 litter please note that I said that the sire was a Hogg not a "hogg hypo".

Actually, with boas, a hypo x hypo would yield 25% supers, 50% hypos, and 25% normals (statistically speaking, of course). To better understand that, it helps to look at them in recessive trait terms. The homozygous form is the super and the heterozygous form is the hypo. In this case, though, we are dealing with a trait in which the hets are visibly different from the normals. Now, calculate the results via Punnett square or the genetics wizard of your choice to find the answer

 

[extreme_bci]

Sorry did not mean to post the same link 2 times. Here is the other one.

http://www.cuttingedgeherp.com/boac...nhtml?profile=boaconstrictorimperator&UID=114

 

[hhmoore]

lol - that makes 3 times...and nowhere in that passage does it state that hog island boas are hypomelanistic (genetically, or otherwise).

Keep in mind, Josh, I was just asking for citations of where you got your information, not declaring you wrong. (I was pretty careful about my phrasing, just to be sure that the distinction was clear)

 

[extreme_bci]

LOL here is the other link.

http://www.boa-constrictors.com/com/com.html

I have talk about this with afew good friends of mine and pretty much that is what we put together but they are more into all this beacuse I do not cross my Hog Island boas with any else. So I will talk to them and see if I left any thing out.

Thnaks, Josh

 

[extreme_bci]

Dang link. just go under Hog Island boas after you click into the link.

 

[Boa4u]

Actually, with boas, a hypo x hypo would yield 25% supers, 50% hypos, and 25% normals (statistically speaking, of course). To better understand that, it helps to look at them in recessive trait terms. The homozygous form is the super and the heterozygous form is the hypo. In this case, though, we are dealing with a trait in which the hets are visibly different from the normals. Now, calculate the results via Punnett square or the genetics wizard of your choice to find the answer

So are you saying that if you breed 2 hypo boas together that you will statistically have 25% normal looking boas? That was not the way that it was taught to me. I was taught that you would get all hypo looking babies, a percentage of which, would be supers. That is what I meant by all hypos without further detailing of the supers because to my eye, a hypo and a super hypo are both hypomelanistic.

 

[extreme_bci]

Just think of it just like the hypo's are a visual het for super. Or just like with motley. You breed to hypos together you will get 25% super 50% hypo (Het for super) 25 normal just like when breed het albinos. Het to het is 25% albino 50% het and 25 % normal but the only thing is you can't tell the diffrence on the normals and the hets. Becuese they are not a visual het unless you are Jeff Ronne. LOL

 

[hhmoore]

Josh, that might be the problem - discussing something among friends, regardless of how sure you might be of the logic of what you are saying, does not make it fact. (I'm not saying it makes it wrong, just that you need to be careful what you present as fact without being able to back it up. I have had many such discussions myself, and have some of my own theories to prove/disprove)

That said, I will say that I have had some discussions on the topic of hog island boas being hypomelanistic. Certainly, they exhibit a lack of melanin - no argument there...but that does not necessarily mean that this form of hypomelanism is genetically transferred in the same way as with salmons (switching to the brand name to avoid confusion, since both are BCI). I won't deny that it could be because, as you said, more breedings must be done to prove it one way or the other.

It does also appear to present the possibility that the "blonde" and "salmon" forms of hypomelanism are not the same, but can possibly be combined. Again, I haven't been looking recently, but I have not seen anything on this. The blonde phase could be a hypo in the genetic morph sense, or simply a product of selective breeding like pastels. Time, no doubt, will tell

 

[hhmoore]

Ok so If I'm wrong, then you tell me what a sunset is?

I think your explanation was perhaps overly complex, and included a component that, in my mind, is unproven. Perhaps this explanation will work better for Vinny:
in crossing a salmon (hypo) boa with a hog island boa, you get mixed lineage animals (such restraint, lol) - half of which will show the salmon trait. These "hypo/hogs" are called sunset crosses. Breeding a sunset cross x sunset cross will produce sunsets (supers), sunset crosses (hypos), and "normals". Going back to my previous explanation, sunsets would be the homozygous form and sunset crosses (or hypo/hogs) the heterozygous form