Bad business practices on Reptibid!

[Double "D" Reptiles]

I'm a bit cheezed about some of the things I've been seeing on Reptibid. Overall, I like the concept of the site but there are users there who post things that are just WRONG! and the site owner/administrator (sorry if it's Rich, I haven't located owner/admin info there) seems to either not be aware or not care due to the nature of the site.

The biggest thing there that cheezes me is seeing sellers, in the US, who blatantly post saying that buyers using PayPal to make payment, which they gladly accept, MUST add an additional 3% to cover the amount that PayPal takes from them for using their service. I saw this most recently on an ad for a 1.0 dwarf Bali retic. I tried to use the features available to contact the seller and make them aware of the ways this is wrong and got absolutely no response.

Should I, or somebody else, contact PayPal and alert them to this practice that is strictly against their TOS? I just can't stand to see sellers do this who should know how wrong this is and to see buyers, who may (or may not) be totally unaware be wronged like this. I mention this option because their "ReptileBBB" seems to be nothing more than a joke compared to this site.

The only other thing that really gets me is seeing animals posted, such as a 6 month old female snow corn that currently (at the time this is posted) has a bid of $50 on it and the "Reserve Price" has NOT been met. Now, I breed a few corns, including snows in the past, and I know that a lot of people here, including Rich, breed and sell corns. I've never seen a juvie snow priced like this that I can remember and it makes me sick. Is this just another example of how utterly stupid some people are, sellers and buyers alike?

(below is taken directly from this particular auction:
_____________________________________

Current bid: US $ 50.00 (Reserve not met)

Time left: 6 Days 10 Hrs+
Started: Sat Feb 21, 10:37 PM
Ends: Sat Mar 06, 10:37 PM

Bids: 1 (bid history) (Started:US $ 50.00)

High bidder: Critterswild (feedback 0 ) )



Buy it Now Price $80.00
This option disappears once the reserve price has been met.
Location: Alta Loma, CA, 91701
______________________________________________

Don't get me wrong...I see a lot of quality animals selling for perfectly fair prices with professional people on there doing fair, legal and professional business. It's just idiots like these above that make me madder than he!! and make me angry that the site appears to be so uncaringly administered.

David

 

[The BoidSmith]

The only other thing that really gets me is seeing animals posted, such as a 6 month old female snow corn that currently (at the time this is posted) has a bid of $50 on it and the "Reserve Price" has NOT been met. Now, I breed a few corns, including snows in the past, and I know that a lot of people here, including Rich, breed and sell corns. I've never seen a juvie snow priced like this that I can remember and it makes me sick. Is this just another example of how utterly stupid some people are, sellers and buyers alike?

David,

Regrettably it is a free market and the person can ask whatever he feels for his snake. In reality I have less of a problem with your example as with others. The ad is pretty straight forward, it's an overpriced snow corn, period. I have seen babies go for $25. Let's assume that the market value for a 6 month old is $40, but you don't want to get rid of her unless someone pays you something crazy ($80). Your are basically doubling the most likely market price. If you are upset with this, what do you think about ball pythons? They are imported for let's say maybe $10 each and are sold for $100 if they have a little more color than usual (with a hefty colorful price added). The point is that you will always find someone that wants "that" animal and is willing to pay a premium for it.

Regards.

 

[Double "D" Reptiles]

Agree, but it's stupid

I can't agree more about it being an "open market", but it sure does cheese me off to see it. And CH imported baby balls do tick me off as well when they are sold like that. The only 2 we've ever had that was anywhere close to examples like that was a definite high yellow we got $75 for and a granite ball that we sold, finally, right before it was a proven trait. Finally saw true CBB babies that sold for 200+ and we got a whole $55 for the female we had. That's just the nature of the beast we call free enterprise. But I hate to see this stuff, especially when it's obviously so stupid, considering how available competivive pricing is with the internet.

David

 

[The BoidSmith]

David,

Believe me...I hear you loud and clear!

Kindly.

 

[dwedeking]

I'm curious why pricing is such a hot button with some people. I just don't get it (I'm not being sarcastic, I honestly don't understand).

If your selling, you'd rather have your competitors priced higher than you (providing you can still make money at your prices). I'd give my left leg for that luxury.

If your buying and the animal/product is readily available just move on. I know I would (and have) clicked "Next" without even another thought to the previous ad.

The other issues (quality of sellers etc) I can agree with.

 

[The BoidSmith]

I'm curious why pricing is such a hot button with some people. I just don't get it (I'm not being sarcastic, I honestly don't understand).

Dan,

Let me give you an example, and bear with me if it's an extreme one. Do you remember the scene in the movie Dumb and Dumber when "Harry" sells a beheaded parakeet (the head held in place with tape) to a blind kid? That was not a very nice thing to do was it?

In my opinion the people that put an outrageous price tag on any merchandise they are not targeting informed individuals. In general they are not waiting for the person that wants that "unique" snow corn, but for the individual that doesn't know how much a snow corn is worth. Those are two different things. They are predators waiting to prey in the unsuspected, trustworthy person that doesn't know better.

If your buying and the animal/product is readily available just move on. I know I would (and have) clicked "Next" without even another thought to the previous ad.

That is exactly what I do, and is exactly what David did. The only problem is that I can't avoid to think of the uninformed kid that comes after me with months of allowance saved whose money will be snatched by this individual.

Maybe a little extremist, but it's the way I feel.

Kindly.

 

[dwedeking]

So if I bought a corn snake at fair market value (let's say $25 for the sake of argument) I could only sell it for $25? What about the time I took to house it and feed it, cost of food and such. Let alone if I was a business and had to pay overhead and try to make a living.

If I find a good deal on a product (price wise) am I then to just put a notice on my website telling everyone where to buy it (instead of selling it directly), I mean going by your rules it wouldn't be ethical to take advantage of the customers lack of knowledge (he doesn't know where to find it)?

My reason for it being bad to sell the blind kid the dead bird is that it is blatently taking advantage of his physical limitation (there is no way for him to find out the value of the bird since he can not see it's condition). Since the above listing was on repti bid I am assuming the buyer would be able to surf the internet and has the opportunity to learn of the products market value. If I go to target and buy a pair of shoes and then go to walmart and find the shoes for less, is that target's fault or mine for not researching the purchase before hand.

I am 100% for informing the buyer on all our animals and products to the best of our ability (I probably couldn't tell you the chemical make up of Herptivite other than what's on the label, but I'll gladly read the label to you over the phone) but I'll charge what I feel I can get for the product.

But maybe I like your way. I'll call Zoo Med right now. They should ethically give me the same price as PetSmart because I have a disadvantaged pocket book

 

[dwedeking]

BTW. Competition and a free market system (well sort of free in America) keeps most issues of price in a balanced range. While I could probably sell a snow corn for $100, I wouldn't sell very many that way and would soon be out of business thereby removing the threat to the market value.

 

[Mustangrde1]

Very interesting topic.

What about a person who buys a few fresh imports and has to put fourth the time and medications needed to bring the animal back to speed for resale. If you buy the animal at say $75 and spend another 100 in meds and feeders should you not be allowed to ask say 250 for the animal?

Importers post their adds as well on many of the classifed and are normally much lower in cost then say a breeder if you do not know the differance and the hazards involved with imports a person would certainly spend the lower cost on a import!

Now what about reverse pricing also? when a person trys to sell a realitively normal animal at its fair market value and can't then puts it for sale a few weeks later at a higher price and makes the sale because someone thinks its something special purely based on price.

I think we have all seen examples of the situations above at one time or another. We have a free market where a person is intitled to charge what they wish for their animal. Despite what anyone feels is right it is their right to ask their price.

As for the nonaware buyer if a person is not familiar with a species they probably shouldnt be buying it to begin with. Before you buy a animal you should know about it and its needs hence research and doing research you will find its fair maret value.

As for passing on the cost of the sellers use of paypal it is not the fault of the buyer you choose to use it so do not pass on the cost of it.

 

[The BoidSmith]

If I find a good deal on a product (price wise) am I then to just put a notice on my website telling everyone where to buy it (instead of selling it directly), I mean going by your rules it wouldn't be ethical to take advantage of the customers lack of knowledge (he doesn't know where to find it)?

Dan,

Here we are dealing with wholesale and retail. I will never be able to buy the $10 ball python, unless I buy 100 of them and pick and choose. That wouldn't be cost effective, right? Thus in this case I gladly pay the premium to the Siegel's and Trenor's of the world In fact I perfectly understand they have to cope with deaths, culling, and maybe even treating and establishing the animals.

Again, my problem is with the person that doesn't know what he is getting into. Real life example: the kid that was duped into trading the corn, for two candoias "on deaths door". It was only a $40 deal, but the candoias were way overpriced (even at $20 a piece) because they were only good for a formaline bath and to be used as classroom specimens.

Another example: the guy that bought the GTP at the show before the doors opened and sold it for ?? (was it three times as much?) to the kid that just came in. We might agree to disagree on that one Dan, but I dislike that practice.

One can buy pop cans for 50 cents and sell them for $5 each on a hot summer day in the middle of a traffic jam. It's legal but I still don't like it. Am I right? Of course not! It is just my opinion.

Remember, those things that both you and I might consider immoral are perfectly accepted in other cultures. Are they wrong?

Kindly

 

[The BoidSmith]

As for the nonaware buyer if a person is not familiar with a species they probably shouldnt be buying it to begin with. Before you buy a animal you should know about it and its needs hence research and doing research you will find its fair maret value.

Scott,

The problem I have with that is that there is a very fine line between that and misrepresentation. We had the example a while ago with the pastels boas and ball pythons. It so happened that someone noticed it. But what would have happened if no one did, and a person bought those animals. Should we have told the buyer: "Sorry pal, you should have done your homework first. Ta ta!"

 

[Double "D" Reptiles]

a personal example

Using similar arguments posted before me....

I've got a local kid (17 or 18) that has asked me if I have any snow corns for sale. I've been totally up front and told him that we don't have any snows available at this time and I can't be absolutely certain that we'll produce any this year due to known genetics v. hidden possibilities. I've told him that the only way I can get one would be to use a known breeder (or 3) from my contacts around the nation and would have to purchase one from them. I've told him that for my time I would add $10 to $15 depending on the hassles I had to go through to get one and the fact that I'd see to it that it fed at least once after arrival. Also, I would have him pay the shipping charges that were charged to me for having it delivered...telling him that average shipping charges were $30 to $35 when done legally. I told him that the final cost for a good snow corn would wind up in the neighborhood of $75 (or more) and that he should really think hard about whether it was worth it to him at this time or whether he'd prefer to wait until we knew for certain later this year what we produced here. He said he didn't know and I told him outright to take some time to think about it and if he was serious in a couple of weeks, then come back and let me know. That was about 10 days ago.

Could I have just said "sure" it will cost you $75 (or more) and bilked the kid? Possibly, but if he found out he'd been had, what would happen next? Granted, we don't sell much locally as we're in a small, hick town (yep, I did just say that.) But once this starts, does it ever stop? How about the next kid...do I then charge $90 and then the one after that $100?

While these things do tick me off, the biggest problem I have (had) was seeing the individual adding the improper surcharge because they didn't like the fact that PayPal charges them for using their service. How do they manage to get away with it and still maintain their account? Does nobody report this or is there something else?

David

 

[The BoidSmith]

Could I have just said "sure" it will cost you $75 (or more) and bilked the kid? Possibly, but if he found out he'd been had, what would happen next? Granted, we don't sell much locally as we're in a small, hick town (yep, I did just say that.) But once this starts, does it ever stop? How about the next kid...do I then charge $90 and then the one after that $100?

In my opinion you did the right thing. Not because of the possibility he could eventually find out, but because you thought it was the right thing to do.

Regards.

 

[dwedeking]

Daniel,

I have no problem with having different ideas or opinions. I love debate on it's merits alone.

Coke in the traffic jam. For you it's unethical. For me the person is providing a much needed product/service at a time when no one else is. He's out thought his competition, and should reap the rewards of that thought and energy. The potential customer is not required to buy, knows they are buying a coke, and know what the cost is (price up frontwithout hidden fees). My personal opinion is that we don't reward success as a society but rather lower the bar so you don't have to do anything to survive.

Corn and kid. How is he bilked? All your costs are legitimate. The price you were going to charge him was more than fair. Now, you realize the benefit of long term sales and offered him other solutions (I'll do this even if it means losing that one sale if I know it will satisfy the customer's need and increase their loyalty). That's not a question of morals but of business strategy and planning.

GTP bought before the show. I have a strong dislike for the person in question but that one instance was smart business sense. Business is 60% planning, 20% hard work, 10% being in the right place at the right time, and 10% luck. He was in the right place at the right time. I will do the same thing at a show with dragons. If I see someone dumping some dragons cheap on market, I'll pick them up (though I won't resell them right away but this debate is on business and pricing not on quarantine issues) to set the market where I think it should be.

Wholesale and retail. In this industry? We have the most warped sense of wholesale and retail out of any trade group in America. With the opening up the markets to the internet there has been a even larger amount of graying of the line between the two. That's just the playing field that we have. A large number of small breeders put animals on the Net at wholesale costs. When I do research on a species and try to figure out if it's worth carrying in the store the pricing is like a shotgun wound, all over the place. Now the smart buyer should be rewarded for taking the time and energy to find the most value. (The other issue with this industry is lack of knowledge of the difference between gross profit and net profit but that's for another thread )

I honestly try to put as much information pertaining to the specimen I'm selling into the ads. I also answer all questions that are put forth. This is the same whether I'm making $5 or $100 (or hopefully $1000 someday ). That's proper representation and separate from pricing.

I disagree with passing surcharges and was mostly discussing pricing.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Coke in the traffic jam. For you it's unethical.

Dan,

It's difficult to put it in words but no, I don't think is unethical. It's just that I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't feel right about it.

What about those (and I know we are getting slightly off-topic here, but I love a good leveled discussion!) that buy tickets in advance of a game and then sell them at the door for 10x. Are there any rules regulating that? What does the police have to say about that practice? They are entrepreneurs, no doubt about it...but???

When someone overprices a snake he creates the expectation in the buyer that he has something special. That if something happens in the future and he needs cash, he will be able to sell it for a similar amount (more than likely not, as he is not that business savy) or that if he breeds them he will sell the offspring for a similar price.

A recent example, the guy that bought the "blurry ball" that died. He stated something along the lines: "this probably cost me thousands of dollars in sales". Not to rain on his parade, but in all honesty I didn't see that happening. He paid for an overpriced animal (the seller is now "missing in action") with the expectation of a return on investment in time. Not likely in my opinion

Regards.

 

[dwedeking]

When someone overprices a snake

According to my dad they are all overpriced. We're not selling a product that the price is based on something as concrete as "cost + percentage". We selling a product based on what others are willing to pay for it. A snow corn will sell for more than a normal corn based upon someone saying "that's cool". If you can't control your "that's cool" gauge and balance that with your pocket book, you have some serious issues especially if your a reptile nerd like the rest of us.

My contention is that the free market place will drive prices down and value up (there by making the above scenarios fewer by elemination). There is also a responsbility on the buyer to research their purchase, especially if they are going to speculate on market values and reselling.

I'm curious. If the only source for corns that I could find was at $25 - $30 each, would it be wrong for me to sell them at $50? I'll offer them as to facilitate the appearence of a well rounded reptile store, but not at a loss just to compete with someone online. Many retail customers will go to a store to purchase product A because that store is known for it's price on Product A, and at the same time pick up Product B. So are you to not offer Product B because the store across town is cheaper on product B?

Good discussion.

 

[The Creature Co]

Got to back up Dan on this one...

The 3 % Paypal charge should never be an issue. We as vendors pay this to use their service & cannot pass it on to our customers, that being said, customers need to notify those sellers who are not aware of this rule & don't pay the fee! I think that it is safe to assume that the majority of sellers who are passing along this fee are not even aware that it is againts the TOS of paypal to do so, and have just put into play what they have seen others do.

I also think Dan(scales) hit the nail on the head!!!
As to fair market value, high priced animals, etc. I think we all need to remember that we are not just paying for an animal, we are also paying for the guarantee, customer service, integrity and overall business ethics of the seller. I have no problem paying more to a seller for an animal that is priced "above" market value if that seller if courteous, knowlegeable, helpful, stands behind their product, has a good reputation, and upholds their warranties. That's not to say that we don't all enjoy getting good deals & saving a buck. However, it is so hard to find upright individuals in this business that have healthy animals, much less that have a good guarantee & will be respectful to you.

I know that 95% of what we sell, we breed ourselves & if some dope drops the "market" value of a particular species, there is no way I would in turn follow suit and sell my CB animals for less than wholesale straight to the public. That would be absurd, there is still a bottom line & we still have invested cost in overhead, feed, caging, advertising, and not to mention an average of 3 years plus invested into our breeders to begin with! We spend as much time with our customers as possible answering questions, establishing a relationship, & educating them on proper care/maintenace- we do have customers pay premium prices for our animals- but we feel that we offer a premium service of not only quality animals but customer service as well.

I have had several customers point out that they could get the same animal for 1/2 the price elsewhere online, and I never try to talk them into or out of that. We simply allow them to research the product themselves & make their own descision. 9 times out of 10, those people end up buying from us anyway and don't go the less expensive route. Customers are taking the time to educate themselves and to price shop. I feel that as long as you provide a description of what you have to offer and they are fully aware that they can get a similar animal elsewhere for less, then there is no issue with charging as much as you feel you need to to recooperate what you have invested in the animal...
People are willing to pay for quality-that comes with a price.
As long as you are not advertising that a product is special if it isn't, and you are representing the product accurately, you should be able to charge whatever you want. Like Dan said, if your prices are so outrageous & your product stinks, you will be out of business anyway.
I would be more concerned about people selling animals at wholesale/below cost straight to the public & gouging the market, then worrying about people raising the prices on animals. There will always be competition & that will delegate the the customers will always be able to find something at a "better" price.
For the uneducated/uniformed kids that are out there with their hard earned allowance & are getting ripped off, that is horrible. I remember being in the same position when I was 15 & having a "big name" breeder sell me a supposed CBB Retic that came emaciated, full of ticks & mites and obviously wild caught. I had no ground to stand on then and felt totally taken advantage of. For those breeders/resellers that do have higher priced animals, it is their moral and ethical obligation to not take advantage of customers in general & get to know their customers to ensure that something like that doesn't happen. Unfortunately, there are alot of bad businesses out there that only care about a buck and don't give a rat's ass about quality or the customer.
It is the breeders that are selling WC as Captives and selling unhealthy animals at a high price that are a problem, not breeders selling quality for premium prices. I don't think that having higher prices automatically shows an intent to rip off uneducated people. I think that having high prices shows that you know what your animals are worth including market value and personal service as a business. For those that are targeting uneducated buyers and hoping to dupe somebody- YOU SUCK!

Just our thoughts,
And remember- Don't pay the 3%!!!!

Jean & BK- The Creature Company

 

[The BoidSmith]

For those breeders/resellers that do have higher priced animals, it is their moral and ethical obligation to not take advantage of customers in general & get to know their customers to ensure that something like that doesn't happen.

Couldn't agree more and that's exactly my point. I'm not scared of high prices when it goes hand in hand with quality. In fact every animal I have bought I have paid a premium because of the name of the seller. But you know what? It's called peace of mind. Not take advantage is the key word. I don't mind asking $1,000 for an animal if the trend in the market for that species/morph dictates that. What ticks me off is the "wise guy" that sells for $1,000 an animal that it's only worth $50 in the eyes of everyone except the uninformed and unsuspected buyer. In that case the seller went for the kill, and not for a sustainable relationship with his customer. In my opinion a customer is the one who buys from you for the second or even third time. If it's only once, it's just a sale.

Unfortunately, there are alot of bad businesses out there that only care about a buck and don't give a rat's ass about quality or the customer.

E-x-a-c-t-l-y! And that is my beef! They capitalize on the fact that some people associate high prices with quality. While low prices and low quality oftentimes go hand in hand, the opposite (high prices and high quality) is not always true. And by quality I don't just mean health, but a reasonable price tag that if tomorrow I need to sell it, I will get a reasonable price for it, and not a crude awakening by someone telling me "hey, you were robbed"!

It is the breeders that are selling WC as Captives and selling unhealthy animals at a high price that are a problem, not breeders selling quality for premium prices.

Agreed.

I don't think that having higher prices automatically shows an intent to rip off uneducated people.

No, I didn't mean that. But you know it happens. Thanks for the BOI that has heped us better understand the who is who in this hobby/business.

And Dan, your Dad is right. Just imagine snakes being sold for $30,000 in the U.S. while in China they are served in a bowl of soup!

 

[dwedeking]

And Dan, your Dad is right.

Please don't post things like this on a public forum. Dealing with his ego is a big enough problem as it is

Sometimes it's good to hash this out. I know on the seller's side you can tend to get jaded on the pricing issue. And it's good to talk with those on the other side of the table for their view. Both to remind us as sellers to put value behind the our transactions and also to remind us that value is worth charging for.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Heres 2 examples for you

During December I was perusing Reptibid to see what was up for grabs.

In case 1 : Seller is running 2 ads . No prob there , probably selling 2 different animals. Not the case , in one ad he has the "buy it now" set for $Xamount , in ad 2 he had the "buy it now" set twice as high with no mention in either ad they they were the same animal.Found this out after e-mailing him that that the "balls" he had up for auction looked alike at which time he admited it was the same.

In case 2 : Seller has a ball python up for sale , towards the end of a couple days in the feedback section is a statement from another seller stating that the ball is his , the pic in the ad is his and the guy running the ad asked for the pic before he made a bid on it. The ball was still in an ad from the original seller/owner.
In short , guy selling a snake that he doesn't even own and got everything he needed to do so from the original owner.

Not even going to mention the Lynn Wood fiasco since that has its own thread already.