Walking a fine line, interested in yoru input.

Herps Alive!

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We are a reptile rescue in NE Ohio that rehomes some animals. We work closely with the local herp community at all levels. We require an adoption application before we will rehome an animal and we then do an in-person interview.
The issue is setting re-homing fees. We do not want to low-ball and upset the breeders and sellers who have supported us or to give flippers a golden opportunity, but at the same time, our goal is to get these animals into good homes as quickly as possible. We check ads here and on other sites to get a concept of pricing, and we also attend local and regional shows to make sure we are pricing in line.

We currently have a number of high end boas due to a police seizure (BWC, snow, etc) and I am struggling putting a fair price on them. I am interested in any input you might have,

Thanks, Keith
 
The issue is setting re-homing fees. We do not want to low-ball and upset the breeders and sellers who have supported us or to give flippers a golden opportunity, but at the same time, our goal is to get these animals into good homes as quickly as possible.

Unless you have an unheard of volume, I do not think breeders would be upset if you are modestly pricing your rescues.

You can't always make sure of what the future will bring, if you have an application and interview, I'm not sure how higher prices are going to help.

At some point if your prices are high enough, buyers might opt for known breeders, known quarantine and long reputation and leave your relatively new venture out in the cold, with you sitting on growing inventories of snakes that need to be fed and cared for.
 
Thanks, this is helpful and you make a very good point about known sourcin g- I think with the vast majority of animals this is spot on - and everybody deals on bread and butter type animals. They won't be concerned if a juvi banded Cal King gets adopted for $25 instead of $40, for instance. That has been our model to now.
I guess I am more concerned with the high end animals. Among our current inventory (the higher end boa morphs) we also have a blue tegu and a super tiger retic and a female Gila Monster (who we will keep for educational purposes).
But to use the Gila strictly as an example they seem to be going in the $7-800 range right now. To rehome her for $200 would probably anger people, but would $5-600 be reasonable (considering the lack of definite provenance). We have boas that I know are het for something, but we are re-homing them for $50-100, because I can't guarantee anything.
 
This is a interesting topic. THANK YOU for what you do for the animals. I guess it does matter what price you put on the rehoming fee so evryone doesnt come running out of the wood work to rehome a BWC or snow for $100. Then turn around & take it to a show and sell it to make money. Then again you make it to high & your gona end up holden on to a ton of animals. Mabe a rehoming fee less then half what there market value is may work. Dont know never dealt with rescuing & rehoming.
Another idea i was thinking about was to do a little research on who originated the lines or genes you have. Say a BWC was created or came from boa women right? Offer her a good deal on the BWC,s you have & mabe she will take them back at a fare price. Or say you have something that brenda from beautiful boas produced, contact her & see if shed help. Same goes for the other big guys. Sharp, kahl, BHB all those big guys. If they care about the animals that they breed like they say they do they should help. Alot of those guys are or have made GREAT money on the animals they breed, the least they can do is give back to the animals that make them live a comfy life. Just my opinion on this topic. All the above mentioned names or businesses i mean NO disrespect at all. You guys are also what make this hobby awesome by producing cutting edge animals. Thank you. Good luck with finding homes. We are near philly in pa, if we can help you rehome & are able let us know.
Chris & jasons
B and S Pythons/facebook
 
But to use the Gila strictly as an example they seem to be going in the $7-800 range right now. To rehome her for $200 would probably anger people

I do not think that selling her for $200 to a good home would anger anyone. One or a few Gilas sold for a modest price is not going to crash any markets, and same for the other high end critters.

From what I have seen of some well known high end breeders, many are in the field because they love animals. Many ask for and receive high prices for their critters, but this is because they put time, effort, and consistently strive for the very best critters.

I can't see anyone like that getting upset because someone provided a good home for a high end critter and got it for a modest price.

No one becomes competition for one of these really good breeders just by acquiring one animal at any price, without dedication, hard work, time and so on, getting one animal is not going to make a difference to anyone (except that one animal, if it got a great home).
 
So we just hope our screening process works and they don't turn around and sell it for $400?


If you are not confident in your screening I suggest you work on that. If somehow someone squeaks through and sells it for $400, unless your screening process was so bad that you did not catch someone with substandard husbandry, well, so what? If you screened them well enough so ascertain that they were decent persons I don't think they will sell the snake to some sweat camp even if they do succumb to the urge to make money.

Unless you are trying to rationalize higher prices, I think good screening and a reasonable low price will allow someone who has always wanted a particular kind of critter and just doesn't have the cash to have one and give it a good home, that is good for the critter and good for the hobby.
 
So we just hope our screening process works and they don't turn around and sell it for $400?
I haven't worked in reptile rescue but have with some horse rescues. There are several whose adoption policy states that the adopter actually doesn't have title to, and thus is not permitted to sell or re-home the animal, until a year after the adopter takes it home. This was because some people were adopting nicer animals for a relatively low fee, and taking them straight to auction. It also allowed the rescue to ensure that the animal was receiving appropriate care.

The adoption agreement, if breached, needs some sort of penalty for the adopter, e.g. the adopter would owe the rescue double the animal's original fee if the adopter sold the animal within that year. These values were usually low enough that the rescue could file in small claims court for damages.
 
I haven't worked in reptile rescue but have with some horse rescues. There are several whose adoption policy states that the adopter actually doesn't have title to, and thus is not permitted to sell or re-home the animal, until a year after the adopter takes it home. This was because some people were adopting nicer animals for a relatively low fee, and taking them straight to auction. It also allowed the rescue to ensure that the animal was receiving appropriate care.

The adoption agreement, if breached, needs some sort of penalty for the adopter, e.g. the adopter would owe the rescue double the animal's original fee if the adopter sold the animal within that year. These values were usually low enough that the rescue could file in small claims court for damages.

This is interesting since my second business is doing media relations for several equine clients. I like this idea.
The question of holding title is harder with herps, since most registered horses are freeze-branded or tattooed. While some high-end animals will get microchipped, most are not, although (as I think out loud as I type) the issue would be more with high-end animals than a $25 king snake.
Once we get moved into our dedicated facility and we have our volunteers in place doing a lot of the day-to-day care work, I would be able to follow up on adopters to make sure they still have the animal, etc. Good stuff.

Lucille - I am comfortable with my process but as we see on the BOI, there are plenty of snake oil salesman out there. We get contacted by a lot of crazy craigslisters about taking animals, so I have become pretty good at smelling a skunk. (Not meant as a swipe at Craigslist, we use it to increase awareness and sell supplies, but never for live animals).
 
FWIW- This is our current initial screening document:
Your Name:
Birthdate:
Address:
Phone Number:
Exotic Vet’s Name and #:
Is this a new vet, or a vet you have previously seen?:
Why are you looking to bring home a new pet?
Are there any children in the household?
Do you have previous experience with reptiles? Explain:
What pets currently reside in your household?
What sort of interactions do you expect your new pet to have with your existing pets?
Do you intend to house your new pet alone or with others?
What kind of habitat do you intend to keep your new pet in? Please detail size, decor, and lighting.
Please (in detail if applicable) describe the diet you will be keeping your new pet on:
What do you intend to do with your new pet if you later find you can not keep it?
Please leave any additional comments
 
Lucille - I am comfortable with my process but as we see on the BOI, there are plenty of snake oil salesman out there. We get contacted by a lot of crazy craigslisters about taking animals, so I have become pretty good at smelling a skunk. (Not meant as a swipe at Craigslist, we use it to increase awareness and sell supplies, but never for live animals).

I like your screening, you might consider asking for an email address. You can get a lot of info doing a Google with name, phone and email.

I can totally see your point about crazy Craigslisters and you are right.
There are local dog shelters here that do charge higher prices for certain dogs, so it is certainly an option.
But I just wish there would be a way for youngsters or those who flat out can't afford a high end snake could get one for reasonable through your rescue. Perhaps if they did some volunteer work?
 
Lucille, over the years I have donated a few dozen animals to classrooms and lower income folks who have shown a willingness to do right by the animal . Once we get moved into our dedicated facility, we will allow volunteers to work and in some instances to work toward animal fees. My concern is what just happened to a young lady here in Ohio. Don't have the whole story, but she saved up and bought an albino burm. Has an abcess in her mouthm,, she did not know. Now she has to "spend all the money for decorations and equipment on the vet." Lots more o this story on all sides, but my point is that I want to make sure that the person has the means to care for the animal. Does a young child a high-end ball morph or can he or she just as easily learn on a normal? Added e-mail already. Thankks.
 
I've been way into dog rescue for years and years and work with a couple of rescues including a pure bred boxer, a mixed breed rescue and a mastiff rescue. We rehome animals that cost $500-$2000 (or more!) as a pure bred for the same $280 adoption fee that we rehome a pitty-beagle Heinz 57 mix for. If you are legit rescue, no name brand breeder should have a problem with a reasonable adoption fee. Should you make a profit ethically? Depends on if you sink it back into the rescue or buy a new bigscreen with it.

We charge more for puppies, less for senior dogs and sometime we rehome less adoptable poochs (by medical or behavior measure) for less or free to a well vetted adopter. So yeah, everyone wants a puppy so we charge more. But for every puppy we get a bit more for there is a boxer with eye problems or a cattledog with worms for us to treat. It equals out for the greater good and we walk going into the red every month.

So charge reasonable and rescue more reptiles!
 
I've been way into dog rescue for years and years and work with a couple of rescues including a pure bred boxer, a mixed breed rescue and a mastiff rescue. We rehome animals that cost $500-$2000 (or more!) as a pure bred for the same $280 adoption fee that we rehome a pitty-beagle Heinz 57 mix for. If you are legit rescue, no name brand breeder should have a problem with a reasonable adoption fee. Should you make a profit ethically? Depends on if you sink it back into the rescue or buy a new bigscreen with it.

We charge more for puppies, less for senior dogs and sometime we rehome less adoptable poochs (by medical or behavior measure) for less or free to a well vetted adopter. So yeah, everyone wants a puppy so we charge more. But for every puppy we get a bit more for there is a boxer with eye problems or a cattledog with worms for us to treat. It equals out for the greater good and we walk going into the red every month.

So charge reasonable and rescue more reptiles!

We are an Ohio non-profit Llc, with a 501C3 app just about finalized,which means wei have to account for every penny. While the Foundation does split some costs (electricity, for instance) everything else is going to getting into our dedicated facility. I am paid $1 a month as the executive director, although some direct expenses are reimbursed. (Actual gas costs,nut not a per mile rate, for instance).
I wish your comment about name brand breeders was true, but it is not. Most have been terrific- supporting us with extra supplies, donating time and cash, etc,(in fact tonight oen of them dropped off a can of the new large-size Repto Min for our turtles) but enough have caused trouble (we cannot buy a table at one area expo due to their whining, err, complaints, even if we just do outreach) that I wanted to open things up to see if it was me or them. Thanks for the input.
 
That sucks. In the dawn of rescue with dogs and cats - starting in the 80's but really getting rolling in the 90's that sort of bigotry happened at dog shows too. Being professional and never giving up was the key. People expect to see rescue groups at shows now. One thing we do is when we do get donations like dog food we give lots and lots of kudos to those who help. Pet Food Express in the Bay Area, for example, is always putting their money where their mouth is. They other big "P" name pet stores, not so much. Make it a benefit in public relations and kill them with kindness!
 
I wish your comment about name brand breeders was true, but it is not. Most have been terrific- supporting us with extra supplies, donating time and cash, etc,(in fact tonight oen of them dropped off a can of the new large-size Repto Min for our turtles) but enough have caused trouble (we cannot buy a table at one area expo due to their whining, err, complaints, even if we just do outreach) that I wanted to open things up to see if it was me or them. Thanks for the input.
This is definitely a problem with the breeder and not with you. You are rehoming animals with no "provenance" - no genetic guarantee, no idea who the sire/dam are, hatch date, health history other than a quarantine period, etc. Most of what you will see is pet quality animals, many of whom will be in rough shape when you take them in.

If a breeder thinks that the sale of his stock is threatened by your rescue efforts, then there's a problem with the breeder's business model, not yours.
 
So here is the kind of thing we are up against, but illustrates the issue well. I posted a GTP female for $250. This is an unknown type obviously, as a police seizure and we have some vet work in her. I was immediately accused of flipping her by a retailer who I do not know. He said Kingsnake and Fauna pricing is unrealistic, that everyone "deals." I asked why that model was not appropriate for us (if you are interested, you fill out ab application. If I think you will give the animal a good home and offer me a lower fee, we will consider it, but I won't discuss that with you until AFTER I get the form. Ironically two local chondro breeders contacted me and after exchanging pics, they agreed the price was acceptable, but that I should consider reducing it to the right home.
It's a lot of aggravation, but we will eventually get it right. Thanks to everyone here for their input. It has been helpful.
 
I was immediately accused of flipping her by a retailer who I do not know. He said Kingsnake and Fauna pricing is unrealistic, that everyone "deals."

The reason so many reptiles need to be rescued in the first place is because of the "haggle over price" culture that has become so prevalent in the reptile industry these days (especially with ball pythons). All those $25-35 normal ball pythons that are considered the "by-product" by less responsible "breeders" end up in trouble.
Here is an example: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=447577
Thankfully, Tom is taking care of this one, as a responsible breeder will do rehab for a snake in need.
People in general equate value with dollar amount and the cheaper the animal the greater the risk of neglect.

In my opinion you ought to keep the fees reasonable yet slightly variable, possibly dependent on desirability of the species... it is tough to figure that part. $250 sounds like a good mid-point to me.

I am happy you are working hard to save reptiles, keep up the good fight.
 
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