(Super) Hypo Tangerine = co-dominant?

rhac

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Hi,

I have a Super Hypo Tangerine (Carrottail) female. She is Ray Hine Line. Pairing her with my Wild caught normal male, I get Super Hypo- or Hypo Tangerine Babies.
So what I’m thinking about:
Is the Super Hypo Gen co-dominant?
Or do I just get 100% Hypo offspring, because the Hypo Tangerine trait is a line-breed-trait….so the “Super Hypo” mixes with the “normal”?

The Babies I get from pairing Normal x Super Hypo Tangerine have some more spots with more intensive black, than the mother. I’ve never paired the offspring back together, to see, if I would get some Babies which look similar to the mother.
But I’ve some ’03-holdbacks, pairing with a High Yellow male this season. If the gen is co-dominant, I’ve to get 50% normal looking and 50% Babies that look similar to the holdbacks, right?
And if it is not co-dominant, all the babies have to be a mix of High Yellow and Hypo Tangerine, right?

Here is a picture I took last year with the ’03 holdbacks, a ’04 Baby and the Super Hypo Tangerine (Carrottail faded with breeding) female:
1024_3436623761323530.jpg

that's the normal male:
1024_6330396364316661.jpg

Sorry for my bad English…I hope you all understand what I mean.

So what do you think? Co-dominant or not?

THX, rhac
 
Hello,

I believe the Ray Hine line super hypos to be co dominant. I believe the "super" form can only be proven out by breeding to a normal, if you get all super hypos then you know it's a "super".

BTW, those leos look remarkably like what people in the US are marketing as "ghosts". Just for the record though, a ghost is a Hine line super hypo without the tang.
 
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KelliH said:
Hello,

I believe the Ray Hine line super hypos to be co dominant. I believe the "super" from can only be proven out by breeding to a normal, if you get all super hypos then you know it's a "super".

Ok now I am confused. If it is a co-dominant then that means that the super form would be homozygus for the gene. So a Super Hypo would be homozygus and a Hypo would be hetrozygus. Therefor his SHTCT bred to a wild/normal would produce 100% Hypos not Super Hypos. From strictly a genetics side it is very curious that he was able to get Super Hypos out of this pairing.

~Jeff C.
 
Hypos not Super Hypos

I think the terms "super hypo" and "hypo" have different meanings for some. So I'll clear it up if I can.

All of the geckos in Rhac's first pic are super hypo (IMO). They have no spots or minimal spotting on the back.

When Ray Hine first marketed his line, he didn't call them "super hypos", he called them "hypos". But as we all know, names change and people began calling them super hypos.

Here is what I have discovered in my years of breeding the Ray Hine line super hypos:
+Breed a Super Hypo to a wild type/non super hypo and you get about 1/2 super hypos

+Breed a Super Hypo to another Super Hypo and you get all Super Hypos

+Some of the Super Hypos I have produced appear to be the "super" form of the co-dom because when these animals are bred to a wild type/non super hypo, 100% of the babies are super hypos

+Apparantly you cannot tell by looking at the gecko if it is a "super" Super Hypo or not

I can't think of anything else right now LOL. Sorry for the long post.
 
robin s. said:
ok here it is... if it us truely co diminant when a hypo bred to a wild type will produce approx 50% hypomlanistic but of various degrees. now that being said once a "super" is made... its not necessarily a true super meaning if bred to a normal will not produce all hypomelanistic babies

So what you are saying is that you can have a co-dom Hypo shoing line-bred Super Hypo traits?

but remember breeding a true super to a normal will most likely not give you super hypos just varying degrees of hypomelanism (lacking in black)

Geneticly I don't think it would be possable to get a co-dom Super Hypo from a co-dom Super Hypo x Normal breeding.

in most forms of co-dominant genes (we will use hypos)
hypo x normal = 50% hypo 50normal
now take two hypos
hypo x hypo and you should get all hypos but of varying degrees and one of those could be a true super hypo i for got the percentage

Actualy a co-dom x co-dom would produce
25% wild/normal type
25% "super"/homozygus for the co-dom
50% Hypo/hetrozygus for co-dom


now a true super hypo x normal will give you varying degrees of hypomelanism
super hypo x hypo i believe should give you true supers and hypos i forgopt the percentages...
im having a brain fart

Super x Super
50% Hypo
50% Super Hypo

~Jeff C.
 
Actualy a co-dom x co-dom would produce
25% wild/normal type
25% "super"/homozygus for the co-dom
50% Hypo/hetrozygus for co-dom

You're correct Jeff. Perhaps the Hine line Super Hypos are not "co-dom" after all, perhaps there is something else going on, or perhaps it is just a very strong trait.

Well, you see the results of my breedings over the years, what would YOU say it is?
 
KelliH said:
I think the terms "super hypo" and "hypo" have different meanings for some. So I'll clear it up if I can.

All of the geckos in Rhac's first pic are super hypo (IMO). They have no spots or minimal spotting on the back.

Thanks for clearing that up for me Kelli. I do agree that by todays standards/definitions that all of Rhac's first photo would be what are being sold as Super Hypos. From your breeding experiences that you listed though I am not so sure that the Ray Hine's Hypo line is a co-dominant line. This observation is strictly from a genetics standpoint. I say this because there does not seem to be any clear cut differences between the Homozygous form and the Heterozygous form.

Disclaimer: I have yet to work/breed any of these animals myself and am basing these comments solely on my observations of other's posts.

~Jeff C.
 
Kelli,

I would venture a guess that it is more of an incomplete gene then a co-dominant. However, I would want allot more info before I would say anything with certainty. It has defiantly sparked my interest. I'll probably be contacting you in the near future about getting some animals to set up a project. I would be looking for true Ray Hine's Hypo bloodlines.

~Jeff C.
 
If true Ray Hine's Hypos are what we are now calling Ghosts, I believe Jodi Aherns currently has some available. But before you buy them double check with Kelli or Jodi, that they are what you're looking for, as I am still a little shakey on this area of leo genetics :p (but trying hard to learn!)
 
Jeff-

It's definitely a fun trait to work with. One of my favorites for sure. Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if it is more like a dominant trait, rather than co-dom.
 
Kelli,

It certainly could be a dominant trait. However that still would not explain the differences between the Hypo and Super Hypo. One could argue that the only difference is that a Super Hypo is a line bred Hypo, however Rhac's original post kinda kills that idea. As he would not have got Super Hypos out of a normal that came from non Hypo lines.

It also makes me wonder as to what is going on with the Ghost lines. The few photos I have seen of Ghost seem to resemble the original Ray Hine's Hypos much more then most of today’s Hypo and Super Hypo.

~Jeff C.
 
KelliH said:
Well, you see the results of my breedings over the years, what would YOU say it is?

I do not feel it is a codom gene..... I do feel that it is a strong dominant trait..... If I am not mistaken, werent these original Hine hypos wild caught??? I feel it is just a locality color morph that is dominant just like any other wild type color morph if that is the case..... Add the strong genetics plus the luck of the genetic lottery, you get some awesome babies..... But this ofcorse is just my opinion....
 
If true Ray Hine's Hypos are what we are now calling Ghosts, I believe Jodi Aherns currently has some available. But before you buy them double check with Kelli or Jodi, that they are what you're looking for, as I am still a little shakey on this area of leo genetics

Yes Laura, you are correct that the ghosts are true Ray Hine line hypos. They are actually also the same thing as this, just minus the orange. They are pretty animals. When I first got my "hypo carrot tails" a couple of my females looked like ghosts.-
 

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robin s. said:
... that might sum it up.... thing is.... take the macks that is indeed a co-dom no doubr about it

Absolutely!

Or as in boas with the salmon and super salmon. There is a very visible deference between a homozygous and heterozygous animals.

its either incomplete dominance.... or like you stated above co-dom show some line bred traits... i wish i could say this or that but they hypos arent so cut and dry... they seem to be genetic incomplete or co-dom or co-dom showing line bred traits.... i dont know but i do believe what kelli says in the fact that it is a strong trait

This is why I am leaning toward them being an incomplete dominant gene. But seeing that the line bred Hypos were available prior to the Ray Hine's Hypos and people have interbred them so much it will be hard to tell. Is it even possible to find 100% Ray Hine's Hypos with no line bred influences in them?

This is also what has me so intrigued by the Ghost. As they don't seem to have any of the line bred traits.

but people also have to realize hypomelanism is the reduction of black ( or very dark)pigmentation .... so to use the term hypo can refer to many degrees from just reduced patterning or super hypos... but all of them are hypomelanistic by definition

I could not have said it better. In fact I personally feel that High Yellows even fall into the hypo category. I think that as time goes on we are going to find that there are actually multiple genes that are responsible for causing different hypomelanistic traits and morphs like the Albinos.

~Jeff C.
 
OK...I think, time will tell..
Like I said, I paired the '03 Holdbacks with a High Yellow...eggs are incubating now...so I'll see soon, what the Babys will look like.
I've another Super Hypo Tangerine Carrottail from Ray Hine...
1024_6139633761616330.jpg
...pairing her the first time this year, to the High Yellow male as well.
And I have a Super Hypo Tangerine Carrottail Baldy female from David Davies.
1024_3266623132356336.jpg
I don't know which line her mother is, but she is fathered by an Urban Gecko Line Tangerine. I'll pair her later this season, or the next season to the same wild caught male I paired my first Super Hypo Tangerine from Ray Hine with.

This is one of the '03 holdbacks, I considered as beeing Super Hypo:
1024_3136303163643963.jpg


the other one with the three points on his back (first photo of this threat) I considered as being Hypo...but you all think, it's Super Hypo as well?

But I think the photos show, that the offspring of pairing Super Hypo to normal
have more spots...and the spots are more intensive black.
 
hypo x hypo and you should get all hypos but of varying degrees and one of those could be a true super hypo i for got the percentage

when working with the codominant ray hines hypo carrot tail trait...

a hypo X hypo will produce normals as well.

youll get 1/4 normals, 1/4 supers, and 1/2 hypos.

super hypo to super hypo all super hypos.

super hypo X hypo 50% supers 50% hypos

super hypo X normal 100% hypos

hypo X normal 50% hypos, 50% normal

keep in mind these are not set in stone. you are not guarenteed any of these numbers. its like flipping a coin. if you flip it 10 times you may get more heads than tails or vice versa. but if you flip it 100 times you will get roughly 50/50.

BTW, those leos look remarkably like what people in the US are marketing as "ghosts". Just for the record though, a ghost is a Hine line super hypo without the tang.

is it really neccessarily a super hypo? couldnt it be heterozygous for ray hines hypo?

also a "ghost" is just a ray hines hypo than im still confused why people sell them as "ghosts"...

we have:

tangerines: hypo looking animals with a respectable amount of orange selectively bred into them.

linebred hypos: tend to resemble hypos AND tangerines from selectively breeding animals with less spotting and more tangerine. these are sorted using a spot counting method. less than 10 spots on the body (tail and head spots are not included) qualifing the leopard gecko as a line bred "hypo". Zero body spots qualifiying it as a linebred "super hypo".

pastels: im really starting to wonder if this is an actual morph that just never got the respect it deserved. muted pastel colors (mostly yellow) with less spotting and patches of lavendar. i like them, personally.

ray hines hypo: a codominant (or possibly incomplete dominant) morph that appears to "erase" melanin as the neonate reaches maturity. a vanishing pattern hypo, if you will. a heterozygous variant with this trait present will typically have more pattern as they reach maturity when compared to a homozygous ray hines hypo. a homozygous codominat animal is commonly refered to as a "super" in the reptile world (i.g. "super" salmon, "super" spider, "super" snow).

high yellow: hyperxanthic. doubltful this is even a mutation. probably a linebred normal with fewer spots and more yellow. ive never worked with these but thats what ive gathered.

SHTCT: super hypo tangerine. the result of combining tangerines with the ray hines carrotail hypo. breeding a tangerine to a super hypo ray hines carrot tail would result in all hypo tangerine carrot tails. breeding two hypo tangerine carrot tails (preferable selectively bred for tangerine and long full carrot tails) will produce some Super Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tails (approximately 1/4). these must display a high level of tangerine coloration to qualify otherwise they are simply SHCT (Super Hypo Carrot Tails).

ghost: once again im dumbfounded. apparently a ghost is a hypo carrot tail. thats all. a ray hines hypo carrot tail without the introduction of line bred tangerine blood (or backcrossed to a normal animal) with a different name. at least that seems to be the popular opinion (and the results of Rhacs breeding).

so as a result we have 5 different hypos (tang, line bred hypo, pastel, ray hines hypo and high yellow) in leopard geckos. than we have the combination of tang to ray hines, and apparently a second name for the ray hines hypo. pretty confusing.

Pairing her with my Wild caught normal male, I get Super Hypo- or Hypo Tangerine Babies.

you said you got a wild caught leopard gecko... where did you catch/receive it?
 
a hypo X hypo will produce normals as well.

I don't think I have EVER produced a normal from a SHCT X SHCT breeding. And I've bred a lot of them.

is it really neccessarily a super hypo? couldnt it be heterozygous for ray hines hypo?

No.. the ghosts are Ray Hine Super Hypos that have not been selectively bred for color.

also a "ghost" is just a ray hines hypo than im still confused why people sell them as "ghosts"...

That is the name that someone came up with to market them as. Just like the patternless used to be called "leucistic" when we all know it isn't really a leucistic.

a heterozygous variant with this trait present will typically have more pattern as they reach maturity when compared to a homozygous ray hines hypo.

Ok.. this is interesting. Can you please show us a picture of a "het" Ray Hine Hypo? I've been working with this line for years and I am just not following you here.
 
one more thing...

rhac, your actually reverse linebreeding. youre losing all that great orange color from the urban line by breding it to normals and high yellows. at this rate your holdbacks will never resemble thier urban line parentage.

that urban gecko is beautiful. great color and a nice carrottail. something like that would be worth upwards of 250 american dollars (198.22 in EUROS) in america. the offspring however would have a hard time fetching 100 dollars.

by breeding an urban line SHTCT to a normal you lose the vivid coloration and a good amount of carrottail (not to mention the color of it).

i dunno...just my thoughts on it.
 
diablohogs said:
high yellow: hyperxanthic. doubltful this is even a mutation. probably a linebred normal with fewer spots and more yellow. ive never worked with these but thats what ive gathered.

Chad,

From my past experiences with High Yellows I would say that they are in fact a mutation. Back when I was breeding Leos I had easy access to wild caught imported Leopard Geckos. In fact I would hand pick through hundreds of them weekly. Now this was back in the late 80's to mid 90's. In these imports I would occasionally find animals with a much Yellower background and cleaner spotting. Those became the foundation for my High Yellow lines (also for my Lavender line). When these animals were bred to a wild/normal import the resulting offspring were 99% wild type. Now I did have one wild type imported female that would give me High Yellow babies but I believe that is because she was a het. With the exception of that one female I would only get the High Yellow from my f2 and beyond.

Now the reason I say wild type and not normal is because the Normals now are not wild type. With very few exceptions Normals have all been bred for some sort of improved color. In doing so what we call normals today are what I was working with as High Yellow back then. This is why I think most of today’s breeders feel like you that High Yellows are simply a line bred normal. In a real sense this is true as we have essentially got rid of the wild type gene.

When was the last time any of us saw a tan and black true wild type Leo?

so as a result we have 5 different hypos (tang, line bred hypo, pastel, ray hines hypo and high yellow) in leopard geckos. than we have the combination of tang to ray hines, and apparently a second name for the ray hines hypo. pretty confusing.

Now we just need to find out which ones are using which Locus and what the different alleles are.

~Jeff C.
 
perhaps he is more interested in the genetics rather than the money?

implying i like beautiful orange geckos just because they are worth more? okay robin... whatever.

they are worth more because they are MORE BEAUTIFUL.

he is from europe you dork... germany to be exact... some countries are still getting in WC's.

okay cause fauna export from india is against indias regulations and theres chaos everywhere else they come from (the middle east). so i was just wondering how a guy from germany gets his hands on a wild caught leopard gecko. ive never been to europe so i wouldnt knowe what they have in the realm of wild caught specimen availablity. it was a simple question that was directed to HIM and there was no need for you to call me a "dork".

wake up. drink some coffee, crap out your cajun food and and stop with the name calling!

also that quote you posted of mine was already exoplained.

sorry i was too busy responding to this thread to notice.
 
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